Steering

[maffi mushkila]

Goody! - The opportunity for a pointless discussion about the meaning of words, the vagaries of the English language. Concise OD has -

 

 

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

[Paul Evans]

But the typing was good wasn't it? I didn't have to edit that post once!

[dor]

Perhaps the key part of Paul's definition is:

 

"Innate propensity, especially in lower animals"

 

So does this mean that if you steer instinctively you are a lower animal?

[rustyduck]

Errr, ever get the feeling you shouldn't have said anything?

[ChrisPy]

It's so easy: stand facing backwards, then if you want the boat to turn left, move the tiller to the left, etc.

If you're a wimp you might need to look over your shoulder occasionally to see where you're going.

Whatever you do, do not install a mirror behind the counter so you can see where you're going. Because then left becomes right and you'll be doubly confused. Unless Maffi and John can design an optical correction device.

 

Seriously: Many years spent alongside the tiller of various yachts taught me to line up a point on the bow of the boat with a point on the horizon, and then move the tiller to follow the movement of the front of the boat relative to the point on the horizon. That soon becomes instinctive.

 

(Hey - I have just had Liverpool Boats confirm they can build me a 'boatman's cabin' on the aft deck of the wide beam, so I'll probably go the whole hog and install an air-conditioned wheelhouse, a bigger inverter - 10KW may suffice - and hydraulic wheel steering. No need for a tiller. All I need now is input from Maffi to design me an automatic electric winching system for the mooring ropes, and I will pass through the K&A without visible assistance. )

[Paul Evans]

I would not install a mirror but not because it would confuse me. I would not install a mirror because I would spend so long gazing into it that I'd never get anywhere.

[maffi mushkila]

Perhaps the key part of Paul's definition is:

 

"Innate propensity, especially in lower animals"

 

So does this mean that if you steer instinctively you are a lower animal?

 

No if you steer instinctivley you are going against the laws of nature, or you have one of my gadgets fitted. Which can be purchased a a low cost with discounts to all CWF members.

[DHutch]

I have just had Liverpool Boats confirm they can build me a 'boatman's cabin' on the aft deck of the wide beam, so I'll probably go the whole hog and install hydraulic wheel steering.

 

So then you can learn how to steer all over agian!!

 

- We have a wheel on Emilyanne, and we can fit a tiller in emergencys

 

- Also, she is well know to handle badly, everyone who steers her says its much harder than a "normal" narrow boat, even when there using the tiller! - I dont find it to bad though, i guess its just what im used to having never used a tiller for more than 1/2 a day, i certainly am her most compitant helm (though i say so myself)

 

 

daniel

[jollyroger]

My meathod of steering is "Everything forward and trust in the Lord"

[rustyduck]

Ah Jolly, a Blaster Bates fan by any chance?

[Paul Evans]

Is that the comedian? Or the late chairman of Chelsea FC? Or both?

[maffi mushkila]

My meathod of steering is "Everything forward and trust in the Lord"

 

Oh you have heard about my newly aquired title then.

[rustyduck]

Is that the comedian? Or the late chairman of Chelsea FC? Or both?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not so much a comedian, more of a demolition expert with humorous anecdotes.

[Paul Evans]

So the late chairman of Chelsea FC then?

[Clive A]

Narrow boats are probably one of the few instances of L/R R/L, yes I know there are others. M/cycles for instance, but this is due to gyroscopic precession,..

 

I don't know who's supplying you dodgy motorbikes, but all the ones I've ridden have been steer left to go left,..etc. And that's only at under 15 mph. You have to lean it in the direction you want to go at higher speeds. If you try and steer (or have your front wheel knocked) whilst at speed you get a " tank-slapper" !! Had a few of them in my time, all scary, some leaving me broke and bleeding.

Hmmm..... sounds like my past girlfriends

Edited February 10, 2005 by Clive A

[maffi mushkila]

Narrow boats are probably one of the few instances of L/R R/L, yes I know there are others. M/cycles for instance, but this is due to gyroscopic precession,..

I don't know who's supplying you dodgy motorbikes, but all the ones I've ridden have been steer left to go left,..etc. And that's only at under 15 mph. You have to lean it in the direction you want to go at higher speeds. If you try and steer (or have your front wheel knocked) whilst at speed you get a " tank-slapper" !! Had a few of them in my time, all scary, some leaving me broke and bleeding.

Hmmm..... sounds like my past girlfriends

 

 

If you sit on your M/C on a smooth road doing about 30 mph, lock the throttle and take your hands off. Providing your bike runs straight push gently, very gently, forward on the left hand handle grip with your finget tip you will find that the bike will drift to the left due to 'gyroscopic precession'.

 

Leaning the bike to go right is the same as pushing on the right handle grip or pulling on the left.

 

And its the 'gyroscopic rigidity' of the wheel that stops you from falling off unless of course you over do it then gravity takes over.

 

Tank slapping is known a 'toppling the gyro'. The good thing is that you can't 'gymbal lock' a wheel, or broke and bleeding would be the least of your problems. Gymbal lock would occour if the wheel slapped hard left or right and stayed there. Hypothetically you would be under the bike when it hit the ground.

 

Not dodgy motor bikes just physics.

Edited February 10, 2005 by maffi mushkila

[Alan Saunders]

. . . And its the 'gyroscopic rigidity' of the wheel that stops you from falling off unless of course you over do it then gravity takes over. . .

. . .

Not dodgy motor bikes just physics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maffi, we are not in the Pub! Gyro-vehicles are a figment of the sci-fi author's imagination. How massive would your wheels, rotating at ~500rpm at 30mph, have to be to keep man & machine upright? Imagine you are pedalling a penny-farthing uphill - you can still balance.

 

A two wheeled machine never travels in a perfectly straight line. If you are falling to the left you need to steer left so that the centripetal force of your circular path will tend to push you right and vice-versa. The rake on the the head bearing & forks creates stability - the further you lean the machine, the further the steering turns in that direction. Initially the frontal lobes have to work hard to react correctly, perhaps we fall off a few times. Eventually the correct reaction is embedded in the rear of the brain and the pressure on the handle bars & weight shift become almost imperceptible.

 

Riding a bicycle or learning to walk (or just stand) are similar to steering a boat. We build a mental model & modify it until it works for us - eventually it becomes second nature. Unfortunately some models seem to work initially but result in bad habits or an inability to progress in the long term. e.g. Student aircraft pilots are instructed to use the throttle to maintain height and the elevator to maintain speed - counterintuitive?.

 

When I first steered with a tiller (many years ago) I started with the 'tiller right to turn left' model but I found that 'push the stern the way I want it to go' worked better for me, now I don't even think about it except when going astern. In calm waters a good helm will make infrequent & almost imperceptibly adjustments.

 

Maffi, for your homework: Which way does a turning boat heel? Imagine a frigate with 50% helm at 30 knots! For extra marks describe how to ride a unicycle .

 

BTW Speedway riders do a lot of drifting left with the 'steering' turned right!

 

Alan

[maffi mushkila]

Maffi, we are not in the Pub!

Quite right so how about this

Gyro-vehicles are a figment of the sci-fi author's imagination.

If you believe that you have some very serious gaps in your education. The principle can be seen by hand turning a bicycle wheel and is present in every turning wheel.

How massive would your wheels, rotating at ~500rpm at 30mph, have to be to keep man & machine upright?

Evert time you lean a M/C the precession in the wheels is trying to oppose the force you are making. Trust me I have done the finger tip push test and it works

Imagine you are pedalling a penny-farthing uphill - you can still balance.

Not much gyroscopic effect, but some. That is mostly balance, but the slower you go the harder it is to balance and you fall off.

A two wheeled machine never travels in a perfectly straight line. If you are falling to the left you need to steer left so that the centripetal force of your circular path will tend to push you right and vice-versa.  The rake on the the head bearing & forks creates stability - the further you lean the machine, the further the steering turns in that direction.  Initially the frontal lobes have to work hard to react correctly, perhaps we fall off a few times.  Eventually the correct reaction is embedded in the rear of the brain and the pressure on the handle bars & weight shift become almost imperceptible.

Over my head

Riding a bicycle or learning to walk (or just stand) are similar to steering a boat.  We build a mental model & modify it until it works for us - eventually it becomes second nature.

Yes but only 'second' nature.

Unfortunately some models seem to work initially but result in bad habits or an inability to progress in the long term. e.g. Student aircraft pilots are instructed to use the throttle to maintain height and the elevator to maintain speed - counterintuitive?.

Mistake!

The elevator only changes the angle of attack of the aerofiol. This increases drag pulling back (and reduces drag pushing forward), slowing the aircraft down reducing lift and the aircraft looses height. Increasing throttle will increase airflow over the wing so increasing lift. If you pull back on the stick, to stop dropping out of the sky, you simply cause an imbalance in the four forces acting on the aircraft that keeps it straight and level the result will only be decent. If you are loosing height it is because the forces are not in equalibrium ie not enough lift so gravity is taking over. Increase the throttle and the airflow over the wing will increase and the lift increases and becomes equal to the gravity. The same is true in the opposite sense pushing the stick forward reduces drag the engine doesn't have to work so hard so it goes faster. Its all about equalibrium of the four forces. Easy to see you are not a pilot. Now I know I 'only' fix aeroplanes for a living but give me some credit I can fly. If you are going to try and teach me to suck eggs, hard boiled if you please.

When I first steered with a tiller (many years ago) I started with the 'tiller right to turn left' model but I found that 'push the stern the way I want it to go' worked better for me, now I don't even think about it except when going astern.  In calm waters a good helm will make infrequent & almost imperceptible adjustments.

However you do it is right for you but it still don't alter the fact that left to go right ain't instinctive.

Maffi, for your homework: Which way does a turning boat heel?  Imagine a frigate with 50% helm at 30 knots! For extra marks describe how to ride a unicycle

There is no gyroscopic principle involved in turning a boat. Whats ya point?Unicycle! I've only just got the hang of a skateboard. .

BTW Speedway riders do a lot of drifting left with the 'steering' turned right!

Totally different concept

 

Anyway this thread ended 3 months ago

 

This thread ended 3 months ago are you bored? If you want to continue this go to PM.

 

PS what is the maimum number of [.quotes] you can put in a reply before they all disappear.

Edited February 11, 2005 by maffi mushkila

[Liam]

Oopps, wrong part of the forums. Silly me.

Edited March 7, 2005 by Liam