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How many PD2s (left in historic narrow boats)?


Chertsey
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Apologies, I am pretty sure I've asked this before, about seven years ago, but a. the search function on here is as terrible as ever, and b. things may well have changed in that time.
When I first bought Chertsey, I recall being told that about 20 boats still had PD2s in them. I now wonder whether that was a misremembering, misinformation, or is now just out of date...

Yesterday I could think of only five: Aldgate, Alton, Cassiopeia, Chertsey and Darley. Plus Lancing has recently had one taken out.

Are there loads I've forgotten (or never known about)? And/or have others been 'lost' to the world of historic narrow boating recently?

(I am sure there will be some replies that make me go 'oh god, how could I have forgotten that one...)

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1 hour ago, X Alan W said:

Years back"The Laidly Worm" (Sutton ) had one don' know about now.

I had the Laidley Worm from c1980, re-naming her Sutton when David Harris rebuilt her for me. She had an HR2 in her then, which I imagine is still there today. The owner prior to me had that put in, and some time ago I did have correspondence with his daughter on here about Sutton. She might be still around and could maybe confirm that.

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1 hour ago, johnthebridge said:

I had the Laidley Worm from c1980, re-naming her Sutton when David Harris rebuilt her for me. She had an HR2 in her then, which I imagine is still there today. The owner prior to me had that put in, and some time ago I did have correspondence with his daughter on here about Sutton. She might be still around and could maybe confirm that.

In late 1967 the then owner a guy from the north east; Newcastle area. It was at that time moored at Norbury, high bridge side of the village/Jcn road bridge on the off side, & between carrying contracts I rebuilt the PD2 for him, as far as I know it was still in place in 72 when I left the cut.  Yes I remember his daughter posting at that time I think she lived in the Coventry area

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Pleased that Alton still has its PD2 and frankly amazed. When we ran it camping for the NBT somehow we managed to keep it and the Tadworths PD going mainly thanks to Ted Ward and then Ian Kemp.

tadworths broke its crank whilst ticking over in Atherstone top lock but limped back to Braunston where there were spare parts to get it running for the rest of that season.

After that got a PH3 water cooled out of a trinity house generating set and stuck a prm box it up to 27 hp and no ducting.

david

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According to my records (which I think are up to date) the following G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. motors are currently fitted with Petter PD2's:

CASSIOPEIA 23, COMET 30, TYCHO 93 (3cyl), ALTON 102, ALDGATE 103, BILSTER 118, CHERTSEY 130, DARLEY 135, GREENOCK 144, STRATFORD 175 :captain: 

edit= BILSTER 118 is the odd one out here as it is the only one amongst these that was not fitted with a Petter PD2 by 'British Waterways'

Edited by pete harrison
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So, a follow up question... How many PD2s were fitted by BW during that late 50s/early 60s shift to air cooled (compared to how many Listers) and did they start with one sort and then change, or were they fitting both in different boats simultaneously?

 

PS I believe that Chertsey's current PD2 is out of Rufford, and the one out of Chertsey is in my shed :-)

Edited by Chertsey
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5 minutes ago, Chertsey said:

So, a follow up question... How many PD2s were fitted by BW during that late 50s/early 60s shift to air cooled (compared to how many Listers) and did they start with one sort and then change, or were they fitting both in different boats simultaneously?

Pete will probably correct me, but I thought that for the GUCCCo boats in the Southern carrying fleet at least, the use of PD2s for replacement of water cooled engines was almost universal.

For example alll the second batch of Willow Wren repossesions dumped in the second batch of Wendover boats had PD2s, (or at least what was left of them once the thieves had got to them!).

Not sure about elsewhere, but I think Armstrongs were also used to some extent in the Northern carrying fleet, weren't they?

I'm not aware that BW put Listers in many carrying boats, though obviously ultimately they were much used as replacements in maintenance boats.

Whilst a huge number of preserved working boats now have Lister H series air cooled engines, did BW ever actually fit any to the carrying fleet?  I know that Willow Wren did, (Flamingo being an example), as subsequently did Blue Line to the last three boats used on the Jam Ole traffic, (one of these was a 3 cylinder rather than 2 cylinder example).

I think most of the preserved carrying boats now sporting Listers HA, HB or HR engines probably never had them until after the last long distance carrying traffic ended in 1970.

(This is a generalisation, and I'm sure Pete may point out other examples I have missed).

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A story I was told back in the eighties about the Petter engines, specifically the PD2, was that the Ministry of Supply had ordered a large number for use in landing craft. The hostilities having been only recently ended, the engines (and the landing craft) were no longer required, and through internal contacts, British Waterways saw an opportunity to replace some of the worn out Nationals and the like with PD2's. How much of that is myth I do not know, but half believable.

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We used to have a pd2 in a 1976 60 ft camping boat which was built by the Boat and Butty Co. of Runcorn. We sold it in 1986 to the welder at High Line of Iver. He converted the boat and put a wooden cabin on.We last saw her at Wyvern shipping and she was called the green amethyst. We also had a spare engine which we sold to chap in Windsor. Whether that ever got put in boat I don't know. I still have an engine manual.

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12 hours ago, Chertsey said:

So, a follow up question... How many PD2s were fitted by BW during that late 50s/early 60s shift to air cooled (compared to how many Listers) and did they start with one sort and then change, or were they fitting both in different boats simultaneously?

 

PS I believe that Chertsey's current PD2 is out of Rufford, and the one out of Chertsey is in my shed :-)

I have not yet found a definitive list of which motor boats were fitted with Petter PD2's by 'British Waterways', but I have carried out just a little research.

G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. motors fitted with Petter PD2 by 'British Waterways' = 68

G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. motors possibly fitted with Petter PD2 by 'British Waterways' = 6 (this means an absolute maximum of 74 and I can account for all others which remained National)

G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. motors definitely not fitted with Petter PD2 by 'British Waterways' = 72 (includes all former G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. motors nationalised in 1948)

F.M.C. Ltd. motors fitted with Petter PD2 by 'British Waterways' = 5

Parsons Merganser (Armstrong Siddley AS2) were fitted in three G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. motors by 'British Waterways', although two of these were later replaced by Petter PD2's.

Parsons Merganser (Armstrong Siddley AS2) were fitted in numerous F.M.C. Ltd. motors by 'British Waterways' in both their southern and northern division carrying fleets.

Parsons Merganser (Armstrong Siddley AS2) were fitted in all 'Admiral Class' motors by 'British Waterways' for their northern division carrying fleet.

Lister JP2 were fitted in a couple of motors by 'British Waterways' for their northern division carrying fleet.

Lister FR2 were fitted in a couple of motors by 'British Waterways' for their northern division carrying fleet.

Lister HA2 were fitted in numerous motors by 'British Waterways' for their northern division carrying fleet.

All of the above are carrying fleet motors and does not include maintenance boats, and I am able to justify all of the above with each boat name :captain:

 

edit = making sure the numbers are correct

Edited by pete harrison
  • Greenie 2
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48 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

Lister FR2 were fitted in a couple of motors by 'British Waterways' for their northern division carrying fleet.

Presumably one of those was Mendip, what was the other? Is it still extant? Still with the FR2?

 

MP.

 

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4 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

Presumably one of those was Mendip, what was the other? Is it still extant? Still with the FR2?

 

MP.

 

Correct, one was MENDIP - and the other was KANGAROO although this was changed to a Lister HB2 when in service as a maintenance boat, and again in 1999 with a 15hp Bolinder.

My records for F.M.C. Ltd. engine changes are thorough but fragmented so I do not particularly want to name each and every boat here or go through my lists at great length, and my couple is meant to signify a very small number :captain:

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When I purchased Bilster, 1963, lying at Hatton yard ,no engine, I fitted a National, she never had a PD2 fitted by BW, this was One of Six Nationals, I purchased from Bulls Bridge, together with 3 gear boxes, one National ended up in Towy, dropped in at Sherbourne Street, One I dropped in Hampstead at Bulbourne, Andy Rothern had one, the rest were used for spares, including a set of mounting feet "sold" to Narrow Boat Trust, for Alton, memories ??, there you go boys, to put icing on the cake, I offered a complete working 15hp Bolinder to a well know canal man, sadly no longer with us for £15.00, yes £15.00 ! my offer was declined (he had Two working at the time), hind sight is a wonderful thing, if I still had it it would be my retirement fund, ah well, we live in a different world.....

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On 27/06/2017 at 20:36, pete harrison said:

I have not yet found a definitive list of which motor boats were fitted with Petter PD2's by 'British Waterways', but I have carried out just a little research.

G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. motors fitted with Petter PD2 by 'British Waterways' = 68

G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. motors possibly fitted with Petter PD2 by 'British Waterways' = 6 (this means an absolute maximum of 74 and I can account for all others which remained National)

G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. motors definitely not fitted with Petter PD2 by 'British Waterways' = 72 (includes all former G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. motors nationalised in 1948)

 

I make that eight remaining out of 68 then - blimey.

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On 27/06/2017 at 20:36, pete harrison said:

Lister HA2 were fitted in numerous motors by 'British Waterways' for their northern division carrying fleet.

This I didn't know - I stand more educated on the matter than I was!

EDITED TO ADD:

If the information I have is correct, then the range of production dates are.....

Lister HA2 or HB2        1958 to 1969
Petter PD2                  1954 to 1965

So the Petter was actually an available option several years before the Lister.

Edited by alan_fincher
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