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Calorifier removal help


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Hi,

I found a few posts about this but all quite old and none offering quite the right advice for our problem so thought I'd try a new thread...

We have quite a mess to deal with in regards to the plumbing on our boat. The biggest issue right now is the calorifier is leaking when the engine runs or when the water pump is running (the water pump is also leaking but let's save that for later).

We don't actually have any money to replace it right now so just desperately looking for a solution that can get us running with at least cold water in the kitchen and run the engine without having to chase after the consistent drips.

I am admittedly terrible with plumbing but don't have any other options so please if you offer advice be patient with my lack of knowledge.

The calorifier's located in the bathroom which is in the middle of the boat and has six attachments going in and our of it. One right at the top which goes to the kitchen hot water tap, the next four are in vertical series, the top two located just above the middle of the tank run out to the engine and are larger, white and quite hot when the engine runs so must assume they carry in the water off the engine; the third is a smaller pipe like the standard cold water pipes but also appears to run out to the engine; the fourth, also standard pipe running forward to the 3x baseboard radiators (also not working). The final connection is just below and slightly to the right of the other four, it has a red valve which does nothing (assume it was originally to turn it off?!) then splits one end going to the pump, the other going out to the kitchen cold water tap.

I would like to know if there is a way I can take the calorifier out without leaking the engine coolant or water everywhere, keep the engine in tact and if so, how and would that leave us without any water pressure? 

It's now 35 degrees in here for the fourth day without water, I cannot express enough how grateful I will be for whomever may be able to talk us out of this mess.

Edited by Lise77
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First question...

6 minutes ago, Lise77 said:

the calorifier is leaking when the engine runs or when the water pump is running

Where is it leaking from? If it only leaks when it's pressurised (which is how it sounds from your post) then it's quite possibly a weeping Pressure Release Valve (PRV). If it is, just rotate it by hand a few times to see if that cleans the scale off it. 

10 minutes ago, Lise77 said:

the third is a smaller pipe like the standard cold water pipes but also appears to run out to the engine; the fourth, also standard pipe running forward to the 3x baseboard radiators (also not working).

They sound like the central heating loop. 

10 minutes ago, Lise77 said:

The final connection is just below and slightly to the right of the other four, it has a red valve which does nothing (assume it was originally to turn it off?!) then splits one end going to the pump, the other going out to the kitchen cold water tap.

This sounds like the feed to the calorifier. Yes, the gate valve is to isolate it. 

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12 minutes ago, Lise77 said:

I would like to know if there is a way I can take the calorifier out without leaking the engine coolant or water everywhere, keep the engine in tact and if so, how and would that leave us without any water pressure? 

Just close that red gate valve :)

That won't enable you to remove the calorifier, it'll just stop water from entering it. 

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Thanks so much for getting back so quickly, it's leaking from the back on the inside so can't really see exactly, can feel the water dripping down on the edge of the bottom...

13 minutes ago, WotEver said:

If it only leaks when it's pressurised (which is how it sounds from your post) then it's quite possibly a weeping Pressure Release Valve (PRV). If it is, just rotate it by hand a few times to see if that cleans the scale off it.

Not sure what this is, I'm guessing this would be a valve that looks similar to a radiator, it has these on the connections going on the pipes going out for the central heating, these are both extremely hot but not leaking. If I'm wrong here and you mean something else please do explain further.

Shut off the water from the tank gate valve because of the leaking water pump, and ran the taps until there was no water coming out and then some, also tried turning the valves in the engine area to stop the water coming in but doesn't seem to do anything, still flows through and leaks when the engine is on. The gate valve (thanks for the correct term) on the tank literally does nothing on or off - I don't think it was installed correctly to begin with.

I can send pics if that would make this easier

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Further to Wotevers post:

PRV (aka "the sticky out bit") has a passing resemblance to a small radiator valve, either screwed directly into the top of the rank or on a "tee" piece in the pipe from the top connection. They can be left with an open connection or a short open pipe going into the bilge. They often have a black or red plastic cap for adjustment; make a note of its position and then wind it a bit in either direction to see if that clears the internal seat.

Steve (Eeyore)

Ah you posted whilst I was typing!

Edited by Eeyore
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Pics always help. The PRv will be on the top of the tank, and have a knurled knob on the top. The pipe from it should go to somewhere that allows overflowing water to drain away safely, such as a sink or a direct pipe to a hull skin fitting so the water goes overboard.

 

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10 minutes ago, Lise77 said:

I can send pics if that would make this easier

I think that may be a good idea.  Please don't take this the wrong way but it does appear that you don't know which bit does what so it will be easier for others to diagnose if they can see the setup.

Personally I wouldn't be just switching valves on and off in the engine area just to see if it makes a difference if you don't know what they do as there could be a chance it messes up the engine's cooling system.

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11 minutes ago, IanM said:

Please don't take this the wrong way but it does appear that you don't know which bit does what so it will be easier for others to diagnose if they can see the setup.

Personally I wouldn't be just switching valves on and off in the engine area just to see if it makes a difference if you don't know what they do as there could be a chance it messes up the engine's cooling system.

Working on pics just slow internet out here so waiting patiently...

Not taken wrong way, I know I'm a complete novice so trying to sponge up all the info I can grab hold of. We were always planning on taking the current calorifier out as it's far too big for the size of the boat and so we're eventually planning on replacing it with a 15L horizontal tank to place in the stern area port side area next to the engine and redo the rest of the plumbing so it's based off a dual hot water system with a wood stove back boiler, but we're still saving up for all this so were just hoping to get by for a bit longer with the current system. It was set up based off an eberspecher but that's not working either. Anyhow because of this I had a few of the more knowledgeable gents at the old mooring have a look at it before we set off so only turned off the valves they told me to. They did warn me though that the original builder didn't exactly do things normally and the local engineer didn't even want to touch the system to try to fix it because of this. They all suggested ripping it out and starting fresh so that's what we've been trying to work towards.

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Note that a horizontal calorifier is less efficient and can also be a swine to eliminate air locks. Note also that a calorifier in the engine space will cool down much faster than one in the cabin. Always aim for a vertical calorifier within the cabin if possible. 

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Given the leak seems to stop when the engine is not heating the calorifier and when the water pump is off, it sounds to me as though there is no effective expansion vessel. It either needs re-pressurising or one needs fitting in the first place.

After initial filling of a calorifier a bubble of air can get trapped right in the top which fulfills the function of an expansion vessel. Slowly, air bubbles dissolve into the water which is why we fit proper expansion vessels with a membrane to separate the air from the water. This might have happened in this case.

 

 

Spelling edit.

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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39 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Note that a horizontal calorifier is less efficient and can also be a swine to eliminate air locks. Note also that a calorifier in the engine space will cool down much faster than one in the cabin. Always aim for a vertical calorifier within the cabin if possible. 

See Cuthound's comments:

 

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2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Given the leak seems to stop when the engine is not heating the calorifier and when the water pump is off, it sounds to me as though there is no effective expansion vessel. It either needs re-pressurising or one needs fitting in the first place.

After initial filling of a calorifier a bubble of air can get trapped right in the top which fulfills the function of an expansion vessel. Slowly, air bubbles dissolve into the water which is why we fit proper expansion vessels with a membrane to separate the air from the water. This might have happened in this case.

Thanks boilerman that sounds like you've hit the nail on the expansion vessel. Shall confirm if so tomorrow after a trip to Toolstation. 

 

2 hours ago, WotEver said:

See Cuthound's comments:

 

And thank you for the advice, we have a serious space issue so that was why we decided to go this route. Don't suppose you know if there are any new addition models which tackle this issue? 

& thanks to everyone for their help, I do love this forum.

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Tackle the issue?  Calorifiers work best the right way up, somewhere warm. That's just a fact of nature. 

3 minutes ago, Lise77 said:

Thanks boilerman that sounds like you've hit the nail on the expansion vessel. Shall confirm if so tomorrow after a trip to Toolstation. 

While Mike is almost certainly correct, the fact that you have a leak just from turning on the pump means that you also have some kind of a leak. Probably but not necessarily the PRV. 

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23 minutes ago, WotEver said:

While Mike is almost certainly correct, the fact that you have a leak just from turning on the pump means that you also have some kind of a leak. Probably but not necessarily the PRV. 

I think you're also right so going to start with the expansion vessel, replace the pump and watch for water carefully. Shall report back how I got on tomorrow.

Thanks again :)

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Thanks for the photos. Looks a bit untidy/poorly installed, but as a system it has the parts you would expect.

Photo one, (pipes numbered from the top in the order you mentioned them). The fitting on pipes 2 and 4 looks like bleed valves, maybe automatic types? The red handled valve is on a redundant branch, hence no effect. You could certainly rationalise the number 6 pipework.

Photo three and four, interestingly the "white" pipes are connected to the main flow and return to the skin tank (keel cooler). Not wrong, but more commonly the flow is taken from below the engine thermostat; same as heater connections on a vehicle. Some boatyards won't use push fit plumbing connected to the engine cooling system; the fitting are apparently rated for the pressure, but they have seen failures. 

 

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I'm slightly confused as to what the issue is. Is the actual cauliflower leaking ( as in split perhaps due to lack of expansion vessel) and you just need to bypass it or are there leaks from the vast number of fittings or untidy pipe work? Or is it the pressure relief valve opening as I think MTB is saying, fixed potentially with an expansion vessel.

 Ok if it's the actual cauliflower then with all those pushfit fittings it should be an easy job to bypass the cauliflower. 

Might I suggest you draw up a diagram of what's connected  to what and with eeyore's info you should be able to disconnect the engine heating circuit (either Cap the pipes off or simply connect together  with push fit fittings.) Similarly you should be able to connect the cold feed straight to the hot tap supply.  Or disconnect the cold feed to the cauliflower and cap it off with  push fit fittings. You will need to think about how to drain the water out or or just go for it and get a bit wet

Get a supply of push fit end caps and couplings whilst you are at tool station.

at least you will be able to run the engine and have cold water whilst you sort out any other issues. Good luck

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7 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Might I suggest you draw up a diagram of what's connected  to what and with eeyore's info you should be able to disconnect the engine heating circuit (either Cap the pipes off or simply connect together  with push fit fittings.) Similarly you should be able to connect the cold feed straight to the hot tap supply.  Or disconnect the cold feed to the cauliflower and cap it off with  push fit fittings. You will need to think about how to drain the water out or or just go for it and get a bit wet

Get a supply of push fit end caps and couplings whilst you are at tool station.

at least you will be able to run the engine and have cold water whilst you sort out any other issues. Good luck

A systems book is always a good idea, you've spend ages crawling around, it can save you money if you can tell tradesmen where things are.

Best not connect them together, it will just bypass the keel cooler.

Whilst at Toolstation buy the proper tool to cut the plastic pipes, leaks are often cased by ragged cuts or incorrect length of insertion.

Tap connectors can be used to connect to the pump, you may need to trim the end to allow the rubber seal to seat on the pump.

Avoid reusing fittings; but definitely don't mix parts between manufacturers.

 

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I was only writing about the principles involved earlier.

Now we have the photos, it really isn't clear to me where the leak is coming from. Have you actually found where exactly the water is escaping from, OP? Can you explain or post a photo of where the water is emerging please?

A roll of kitchen paper or bog roll is useful for drying pipework and surfaces in order to pin down exactly where the water is coming from.

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22 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I may have missed it but I can not see a "normal" PRV on the system. If I am right I would sort that first, then worry about an expansion vessel/accumulator.

I was thinking that. 

Could it be that someone has removed it and utilised the fitting, probably the very top one leading to the kitchen tap, as an easy way to add another tap without messing about with the existing pipe work? This could mean that the calorifier is releasing its pressure through an iffy fitting?

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Our PRV is nowhere near the calorifier - it's on the cold water feed, under the basin in the bathroom, and drains into the sink drain. (We also have no one-way valve, of course).

So it might be worth looking under the sink & washbasin to see if there is a PRV there?

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On a household system there will be two PRVs. One in the cold water supply to the calorifier, and another connected directly into the calorifier. The second is actually a "temperature and pressure regulator", and also opens if the temperature in the calorifier rises above 90 degrees C. 

These two PRVs are mandatory under the Building Regulations for safety reasons, along with a further safety device to disconnect the heat source if the temperature gets to 90 C. It always strikes me as surprising that boat calorifiers only have one single safety device given society's hysterical preoccupation with 'safety' these days (illustrated by the three safety devices mandatory on house calorifiers). 

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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