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I am currently at the stage where I am seriously contemplating a live aboard narrow boat in the next couple of years.  I have done a lot of research so far, and because of my particular requirement (have motorcycle and want a long fore deck than can be modified for ramps and mechanism to secure the motorcycle while afloat) it looks like a made to order or a self fit-out of a sail away is going to be the right path.

While I am fairly good at DIY I think fully fitting out a galley area is going to be beyond my capabilities for the standard of finish that I would want.  Fitting a galley and dining areas out with flat pack products  doesn't seem like a great idea due to many of them using MDF or Chipboard which is not going to live well in a high humidity environment. 

So the questions I really want answered are :

what is the best way to approach this if I went the route of fitting out a sail away myself?

Are their suppliers of pre-made or flat pack units (using marine ply I assume) suitable for use on narrowboats?

Are there any recommended companies or tradesmen that will do a fit out of a galley and lounge area at reasonable rates?

 

I know that this question is a bit like asking how long is a piece of string and depends on how much you wish to spend.  At the moment my budget is likely to be 40,000 to 45,000 in total. (purchase of boat and fit out)

 

 

 

Edited by efanton
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Flat pack kitchen units are made to go into humid environments. Just choose good quality and they can be adapted to fit to sloping sides if that is what you have. Any good independent chippy or boat yard should be able to quote for the work if you want it that way. Help with the bathroom/toilet is perhsaps where you will benefit from a boatfitters experience. Saloon and bedrooms can often be furnished with freestanding units, but wardrobes can be a bit awkward to build.

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Before you get all the way down into the nitty gritty of your fit out, driven as it is by your idea of a motorcycle on your tug deck, have you fully researched how the bike think is going to work? I'm not saying it's not doable, it is, but it may well be more complex than you think. There have been a number of threads about stowage, Bridge and tunnel air draft limitations, cranage, ramps, places where you can get a bike ashore with road access, and the legalities of motorcycles on the towpath. Hopefully you've already solved all that but, if not, you should before you build a boat around the idea. Hope that's helpful. :)

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For your galley fit-out, the cupboard doors are the most visible and can be bought as just doors from many places including B&Q.  The carcass is fairly simple and if you buy flat pack will very probably need adjusting as (1) they will probably be too deep and (2) the side of the boat below the gunnel is often not a true right angle to the floor.  So long as your layout can use 'standard' width doors that may be the way to go, and build your own carcass.  If using exterior ply from Wickes/homebase/B&Q then be prepared to go through the stack to find a show face you think will match the rest wood on display.  They will also cut to width to make it easier to take to your boat.

If you have a 1/2" router cutting the top if you go for solid wood - bamboo is very stable in humid places, but a bit softer than oak - is fairly simple if you have reasonable DIY skills.  You can get good solid wood worktops on line at reasonable prices.

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I have a boat and a Bonneville and I've spent quite a few years considering the mix of the two, perhaps having a  light motorbike on a boat. I've watched and talked to quite a few people who have done this with all manner of ramps, hoists and cut away sections. Getting the bike on and off  the boat and be  adjacent to safe exits off the tow path in a spot where you actually would like to moor up is not an easily achieved situation.

We reflected on this and now have come down to using compact folding electric Brompton sized bicycles. Ours have a range of up to 40 miles, easily stow out of site in the engine room. Easily charged on board the boat. No petrol is needed aboard and you can moor in lovely spots and cycle off down the tow path.

We can fold them quickly and even board buses storing them in the buggy/pram area. Simple panniers make the shopping a breeze and we laugh at hills and headwinds. Our versions have good gears  disc brakes, lights and mudguards.

Having said all this I still use my Triumph for trips from home in the winter but our considered opinion is that motorbikes and boats don't work for many whilst folding electric bikes and boats seem a better marriage to us.

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hmm.  The problem with reading many articles or from many sources is that some might be complete bull@@@t

I was lead to believe that flat packs from the usual DIY sources (IKEA, B+Q, etc) were to be avoided at all costs.  Now it seems from most replies up until now they can be used as long as I choose wisely.  If it is the case that I can use quality flat packs then problem solved.   Thanks everyone.

 

Quote

Before you get all the way down into the nitty gritty of your fit out, driven as it is by your idea of a motorcycle on your tug deck, have you fully researched how the bike think is going to work? I'm not saying it's not doable, it is, but it may well be more complex than you think. There have been a number of threads about stowage, Bridge and tunnel air draft limitations, cranage, ramps, places where you can get a bike ashore with road access, and the legalities of motorcycles on the towpath. Hopefully you've already solved all that but, if not, you should before you build a boat around the idea. Hope that's helpful. :)

Yes I have thought it through.  In fact the solution I have come up with appears to be simpler and far more practical than the many others I have seen.

In essence it requires a wheelchair ramp just in front of the front bulkhead.  (that will require a chunk being cut from the side of the boat to keep the ramp as level as possible to the tow path).  There will be a industrial sized hinge (BIG and strong enough to carry 500lb weight) mounted vertically inside the bow matching the right hand edge of the ramp. A track about 2 feet wide (box steel  frame with diamond steel plate top) will be welded to this so if the hinge is open this track is in-line with the ramp and across the width of the boat.  When the hinge is closed the bike and track move around to the bow wall freeing up a lot of the space on the well deck.  Although this solution takes up little space while the bike is parked it does require a good bit of space for the 6 foot track to rotate round.  This will require at least an 8 foot bow deck.  Sketchup design in the works will post if you want when complete. 

My biggest concern about this design is ballast.  Willl a 500lb motorcycle parked to one side of the bow affect the boats handling.  I am working on the assumption that proper position of ballast will prevent any problem.

 

 

 

Edited by efanton
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If a modern new build narrow boat is a "high humidity" environment, then something has gone wrong.

With proper insulation, no leaks, and decent ventilation, your boat interior should be neither damp nor "humid".

Flat pack kitchen furniture should be fine.  For our last boat we used the Cooke and Lewis units from B&Q, which seemed to me to be a considerably higher standard than those we had fitted at home as part of a rather expensive fit-out by "professionals".  The units I mention have several inches of void at the back behind rear panels to allow running services, so this allows the back edges of the sides to be shaped to match the profile of your hull linings, which are unlikely to be vertical.

Others have reported Ikea units to be very good, though I have no practical experience myself.

We also looked at Homebase and Wickes, but the units I have listed from B&Q worked out cheaper at the time, seemed better constructed, and were more obviously modifiable to fit lengthwise installation along the boat.
 

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Two immediate issues :

1) The tow path can be anywhere between 1 foot and 6 foot above water level.

2) It is illegal to ride / drive any vehicle on the towpath

 

Improper use of towing paths 31.

(1) No person, unless authorised by the Board or otherwise legally entitled so to do shall:

(a) Ride or drive any animal or vehicle over any towing path

(b) Obstruct any towing path or interfere with the authorised use thereof

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Two immediate issues :

1) The tow path can be anywhere between 1 foot and 6 foot above water level.

2) It is illegal to ride / drive any motorised vehicle on the towpath

 

1. Yes I know hence the need for a ramp in the first place to get the bike onboard.

 

2. Who said I was going to ride my motorcycle on the tow path?  No intention of. 

but there is no law against pushing the motorcycle along the towpath.  Its my intention to have a permanent mooring anyhow, so the occasional time I do wish to use the motorcycle away from the permanent mooring will just mean being a bit more selective about the location of a temporary mooring spot, making sure it is a relatively short distance from a road and that a motorcycle can be pushed to that road.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, efanton said:

but there is no law against pushing the motorcycle

Having personally been affected by your suggested 'non-existent' law, I suggest you do a little more research.

 

As an aside - I certainly wouldn't be wanting to push a '500lb' motorcycle very far along a narrow, muddy tow-path.

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had my motorcycle loads of times on a tow path while fishing.  As long as you are sensible nothing will happen in my experience. obviously pushing a big bike that takes up the entire width of the tow path if that's narrow is going to cause problems whether you are riding it or pushing it.

Have met and talked to both police and waterways board people while on the tow path with the motorcycle.  Actually the waterways board man had no problem with me having the engine running and in 1st gear while pushing the bike up a slope when I asked him if  could do so.  I guess its a case of common sense, and being polite. 

 

It might surprise you to know that certain tow paths are actually green lanes or classifies as B.O.A.T'S ( Byways Open To All Traffic ) (and no this is not a joke). These were public highways BEFORE the canal was built, they just happen to build the canal alongside existing public rights of way.   it IS perfectly  legal to ride a motorcycle on these particular tow-paths if you wished unless a TRO (traffic regulation order) has been put in place but the councils police or CRT will not tell you that, rather suggesting that you may be breaking some rule or law  but never specifically stating which rule or law  is relevant ( or indeed irrelevant)  to that particular stretch.  The reason tow paths and their use can be a legal quagmire is the is partly due to them technically still being public rights of way or in some cases ancient public highways. Obviously this goes back to what is sensible, just because you might have a legal right to ride a motorcycle on certain paths and byways it doesnt mean you should if you are going to block the entire width of the path, tear up the path because its its pure mud or the path is heavily used by pedestrians.

 

But this thread was not started to discuss motorcycles or use of towpaths.  Now knowing  the flat packs are now still a option the sail away option is looking much better.Thanks to everyone that did reply.

Edited by efanton
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2 hours ago, efanton said:

hmm.  The problem with reading many articles or from many sources is that some might be complete bull@@@t

I was lead to believe that flat packs from the usual DIY sources (IKEA, B+Q, etc) were to be avoided at all costs.  Now it seems from most replies up until now they can be used as long as I choose wisely.  If it is the case that I can use quality flat packs then problem solved.   Thanks everyone.

 

Yes I have thought it through.  In fact the solution I have come up with appears to be simpler and far more practical than the many others I have seen.

In essence it requires a wheelchair ramp just in front of the front bulkhead.  (that will require a chunk being cut from the side of the boat to keep the ramp as level as possible to the tow path).  There will be a industrial sized hinge (BIG and strong enough to carry 500lb weight) mounted vertically inside the bow matching the right hand edge of the ramp. A track about 2 feet wide (box steel  frame with diamond steel plate top) will be welded to this so if the hinge is open this track is in-line with the ramp and across the width of the boat.  When the hinge is closed the bike and track move around to the bow wall freeing up a lot of the space on the well deck.  Although this solution takes up little space while the bike is parked it does require a good bit of space for the 6 foot track to rotate round.  This will require at least an 8 foot bow deck.  Sketchup design in the works will post if you want when complete. 

My biggest concern about this design is ballast.  Willl a 500lb motorcycle parked to one side of the bow affect the boats handling.  I am working on the assumption that proper position of ballast will prevent any problem.

 

 

 

If you are going to do this I presume you will have the shell built like that at the outset - a two foot wide gap cut out of the side of an existing well deck is going to cause problems.   

A 250 kilo bike will cause the boat to list if it's well over to one side but you could compensate by considering how you distribute weight/ballast around the rest of the boat. - have your stove and the batteries on the opposite side for example.  Plenty of boats have additional ballast in the form of steel weights to counter a list but it's best if you can avoid it.   

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Quote

If you are going to do this I presume you will have the shell built like that at the outset - a two foot wide gap cut out of the side of an existing well deck is going to cause problems.   

Yes thats the plan.  Its probably going to be far cheaper to get a sail away built with the modded side and wheelchair ramp, than trying to find a narrow boat for sale with a 8 foot + bow deck and then paying for serious modifications to that.

Quote

have your stove and the batteries on the opposite side for example.  Plenty of boats have additional ballast in the form of steel weights to counter a list but it's best if you can avoid it.   

this was also the plan, balancing the weight between port and starboards should be fairly easy,  I'm just not sure about that much weight on the bow.  I am currently working on the assumption that 500lb is not enough to cause really serious issues and any ballast that might have normally been put under the bow deck can be ommitted.

Edited by efanton
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What length of craft are you contemplating. As I`m currently fitting out a 57 foot hull ( bought with engine and windows in plus battened out, ballasted and floored) have a reasonable selection of tooling and as I `m retired from the building trade  would like to think reasonably competent in most of the skills needed it is certainly going to cost me more than £45000 and that was with a "off the shelf " semi-traditional hull. It has also taken me since the middle of October last year working nearly every day for at least 6 hours a day admittedly with some unusual features but plan and cost in detail is certainly my advice. It is a very steep learning curve even with the great help, depth of knowledge and experience from the people here on the forum.  

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5 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Before you get all the way down into the nitty gritty of your fit out, driven as it is by your idea of a motorcycle on your tug deck, have you fully researched how the bike think is going to work? I'm not saying it's not doable, it is, but it may well be more complex than you think. There have been a number of threads about stowage, Bridge and tunnel air draft limitations, cranage, ramps, places where you can get a bike ashore with road access, and the legalities of motorcycles on the towpath. Hopefully you've already solved all that but, if not, you should before you build a boat around the idea. Hope that's helpful. :)

 

DSCF4636small.jpg

DSCF6878small.jpg

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Think that second picture looks like a good idea especially if the "rack" is able to move out to the bank with the bike firmly still attached until on the towpath. If motorized would be very easy. Even a pulley system must work.

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was looking for it to be in the 50 to 55 foot range.

I know it will cost me more the £45000 total, but  i was budgeting on spending £40,000 to £45000 to get me on the water with essentials installed.  From the research I have done so far a part fitted 55 footer is going to cost about £40,000. add about 2 grand (wild but possibly excessive guess)  for  the motorcycle ramp plus another 3 grand for the bare essentials (bed, stove etc) to actually live aboard while completing the fit out.

http://www.liverpoolboatco.co.uk/id14.html

http://www.sherwoodboats.co.uk/prices.php

have looked at many other companies and all of them come in within £500 of each other near enough

in a perfect world where money was not a factor I would really want a 55 to 60 footer.  As the boat will only be for me I can save a few feet on storage (wardrobes, drawers) and not have to worry about a sofa converting to an extra bed and long enough to stretch out in but not worrying about have seating for 4 or 5 people.

I havent costed everything yet, this is very much a work in progress , and I am thinking and budgeting at least 2 years in advance.  I guestimate that £10,000 will finish the boat off, but I could be wildly wrong there.  The £45.000 figure is the maximum I can play with as a lump sum,  and what I am currently trying to do is see if I can get a part fitted boat on the water and habitable. or alternatively cost the purchase of an existing boat and the modifications I would need to do to that for a motorcycle.

 

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27 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

 

DSCF4636small.jpg

DSCF6878small.jpg

to be honest both idea appear to be terrible solutions to me.

First one wastes so much space.  and still there appears to be no easy way to single handedly manoeuvre a motorcycle on and off the boat.

the second one is a disaster waiting to happen. What happens if that strap slips or a weld or hinge decides its finally going to give up the ghost.

 

My idea is slightly similar to the second picture in so much as the track that holds the bike will be very similar.  The biggest difference is the location , inside the boat.

this should give you a better idea of what Im thinking.  You will see how the bike track pivots and swings out of the way freeing up space on the bow deck once the bike is stowed.

bike%20ramp_zpswgwge1kv.png

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

 

DSCF4636small.jpg

DSCF6878small.jpg

Yeah, I know it's possible DC, that's why I said "I'm not saying it's not doable, it is, but ...".  Twas but a cautionary note to check that the OP had considered the various issues involved, a few of which I went on to list. Those issues I think are all pertinent and should be fully considered before sinking funds into galley fittings.

It seems the OP has given it thought - and is also less than impressed with these examples.  His own idea might work, I don't know, but embarking and disembarking a quarter of a tonne off the centre line is gonna be interesting in terms of trim! I'd certainly recommend a fore and aft fridge rather than one athwartships if a floor covered in beer cans is not to be a regular occurrence! :D

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52 minutes ago, efanton said:

The biggest difference is the location , inside the boat

Are you looking to actually 'garage' the bike inside the boat ?

If so, you may like to run your ideas past the BSS Examiners - petrol on a boat is subject to stringent safety rules and any 'stored' petrol (ie in the bike tank) must be kept externally in a locker venting overboard. This can be achieved by either having the bike on the deck, or in the front well by having scuppers.

 

If inside the boat, any petrol fumes will settle down into the bilges until one day you will be knocking on the Pearly gates.

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1 hour ago, efanton said:

was looking for it to be in the 50 to 55 foot range.

I know it will cost me more the £45000 total, but  i was budgeting on spending £40,000 to £45000 to get me on the water with essentials installed.  From the research I have done so far a part fitted 55 footer is going to cost about £40,000. add about 2 grand (wild but possibly excessive guess)  for  the motorcycle ramp plus another 3 grand for the bare essentials (bed, stove etc) to actually live aboard while completing the fit out.

http://www.liverpoolboatco.co.uk/id14.html

http://www.sherwoodboats.co.uk/prices.php

have looked at many other companies and all of them come in within £500 of each other near enough

in a perfect world where money was not a factor I would really want a 55 to 60 footer.  As the boat will only be for me I can save a few feet on storage (wardrobes, drawers) and not have to worry about a sofa converting to an extra bed and long enough to stretch out in but not worrying about have seating for 4 or 5 people.

I havent costed everything yet, this is very much a work in progress , and I am thinking and budgeting at least 2 years in advance.  I guestimate that £10,000 will finish the boat off, but I could be wildly wrong there.  The £45.000 figure is the maximum I can play with as a lump sum,  and what I am currently trying to do is see if I can get a part fitted boat on the water and habitable. or alternatively cost the purchase of an existing boat and the modifications I would need to do to that for a motorcycle.

 

That's a very old web link, Liverpool boats stopped trading about eight years ago  

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Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you looking to actually 'garage' the bike inside the boat ?

If so, you may like to run your ideas past the BSS Examiners - petrol on a boat is subject to stringent safety rules and any 'stored' petrol (ie in the bike tank) must be kept externally in a locker venting overboard. This can be achieved by either having the bike on the deck, or in the front well by having scuppers.

 

If inside the boat, any petrol fumes will settle down into the bilges until one day you will be knocking on the Pearly gates.

No.  Inside the hull of the boat, not inside the cabin of the boat.

If the bike for what ever reason falls over  I dont want to have to be trying to dredge it out of a canal.

I thought the diagram was self evident.  The bike will be stored on the bow deck.

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4 minutes ago, nbfiresprite said:

That's a very old web link, Liverpool boats stopped trading about eight years ago  

Thanks.  have crossed them off my list.  Plenty of others still on it though at similar prices.

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1 minute ago, efanton said:

I thought the diagram was self evident.  The bike will be stored on the bow deck.

It was this bit that confused me :

1 hour ago, efanton said:

The biggest difference is the location , inside the boat.

this should give you a better idea of what Im thinking.  You will see how the bike track pivots and swings out of the way freeing up space on the bow deck once the bike is stowed.

If the boat remains on the 'track' then you will not have a deal of room side-to-side with a 'full size' bike.

The 'front' 6 feet on a NB is 'narrow' and comes to a point (as per the above picture showing the hoist) - I know you are going to try for 9 feet but I wouldn't work on being able to easily get 'down the sides' of the bike to the water tank, gas bottles, anchor or whatever.

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