Flags on Boats

[tired old pirate]

But how many of readers of this forum cruise in 'real' narrow boats? (the historic Narrow Boat Owners' Club provides a reasonable definition, that boils down to being built for carriage of cargo or waterway maintenance). Most people cruise in boats designed from the start as as cruisers, that just happen to have the general lines of a converted narrow boat. If you are happy with non-authentic things like running water, electric lights, televisions, microwaves etc then why not accept that *some* people, especially those with a salt water background, follow the cruiser tradition of showing an ensign? Can't we just live and let live about what traditions we follow? Would the cut not be a duller place if we all slavishly followed the same ones?

 

I refer you to to following guidelines on 'real' narrowboats. I note flags are not mentioned so a little off topic sorry

 

"a narrowboat is defined as "A waterborne craft of maximum beam 2.1i metres and LOA not exceeding 21.5M, with a displacement hull and armament not exceeding a single turret with not more than two 130mm cannon and not more than two torpedo tubes firing conventional torpedos." A narrowboat with more than two torpedo tubes, or with nuclear torpedos, is reclassified as a barge and is not allowed on the Grand Union canal, the Llangollen, or the Thames above Lechlade."

 

Thanks to uncyclopedia for that

 

diagram to check if not sure your boat is real

 

or what about this?

 

Edited June 8, 2007 by tired old pirate

[Djuwenda]

It isn't necessary, but neither is messing about in boats!

 

If people want to fly a flag, then they should be able to do so without sneers.

 

They should, however fly the correct flag

 

 

no.

 

I have the right to sneer just as much as they have the right to put up a flag.

 

and I can fly what the bloody hell I like, thank you very much.

[mayalld]

no.

 

I have the right to sneer just as much as they have the right to put up a flag.

 

Indeed you do.

 

It won't make you a better person though.

 

and I can fly what the bloody hell I like, thank you very much.

 

Actually, you can't.

[boatmanckp]

If you want chapter and verse on flying flags the RYA has a handy little booklet that will answer all your questions. Boaters flying the wrong flags are merely showing their ignorance and that in itself is not an excuse for breaking the law.My boat, small as it, is is a registered British ship I fly a pilot jack at the jack staff and the red ensign on the stern.At one time Thames lockkeepers were very strict with boats not complying with flag laws. Chris.KP

[Tomska]

Boaters flying the wrong flags are merely showing their ignorance and that in itself is not an excuse for breaking the law.

Perhaps they just don't care. If the law isn't enforced and nobody gets hurt, what does it matter if a narrowboat is flying a jolly roger? Or a pair of old bloomers? Or whatever else they want to fly? I really can't see what the problem is.

 

At one time Thames lockkeepers were very strict with boats not complying with flag laws.

 

Presumably they now have better things to do than to enforce pointless and outdated regulations.

[carlt]

Indeed you do.

 

It won't make you a better person though.

Actually, you can't.

There's a whitecap job going round here. Want me to grab you a form?

[mayalld]

Perhaps they just don't care. If the law isn't enforced and nobody gets hurt, what does it matter if a narrowboat is flying a jolly roger? Or a pair of old bloomers? Or whatever else they want to fly? I really can't see what the problem is.

 

What does it matter.....

 

Take a look around you at the things happening in society that you aren't happy with.

 

How many of them came about due to somebody deciding that "it doesn't matter" about a host of little things.

 

How many of them came about due to somebody deciding that he had rights to ignore the rules.

[fuzzyduck]

And how many of them are due to pointless, and ill thought out rules?

[carlt]

What does it matter.....

 

Take a look around you at the things happening in society that you aren't happy with.

 

How many of them came about due to somebody deciding that "it doesn't matter" about a host of little things.

 

How many of them came about due to somebody deciding that he had rights to ignore the rules.

But they're maritime rules Dave. They don't apply on the canals. The rules of the road don't apply on the canals.

 

I'm not breaking any rules if I fly Geri's union jack dress off a boat pole. I'm not breaking the law if I fly the Union Jack upside down. If an old salt wants to fly the correct flag at the correct time of the day then I'm not going to stop him. But to say that you're contributing to the breakdown of society because of a bit of fun is ridiculous.

 

Besides, society was finished when those appalling youths started dancing the Charleston in the 20's.

[Tomska]

Fuzzyduck beat me to it.

 

Perhaps you can explain to me why it's so crucially important that the flag rules are enforced on the Thames? Or on the cut?

[Grumpy Bear]

The only flag "rule" is that when in International Waters a vessel should display its colours to another vessel, and when in Foreign waters must display its colours unless in Harbour. Not doing so is a very good way to upset the French!

 

The rest is "Flag Etiquette" and that is an entirely different thing based on tradition and culture.

[Bookharbour]

It is also usual to fly the signal flag for "I have a pilot on board" when you do.

So if you were taking a narrowboat from Bristol to Sharpness, you could fly the "H" signal flag and the

Red Ensign (Duster) at the stern.

 

The Union Jack is normally only worn at the jackstaff of a naval vessel.

 

We supply foreign going ships with flags and they are normally equipped with national flags

for all the countries they are liable to visit (courtesy flags) and the full set of International Signal Flags.

 

We also supply yachts and normally sell the 3/4 yard Red Ensign, which costs about £21.

The largest in our stock is 3 yards long !!!

Edited June 8, 2007 by Bookharbour

[Supermalc]

But they're maritime rules Dave. They don't apply on the canals. The rules of the road don't apply on the canals.

 

I'm not breaking any rules if I fly Geri's union jack dress off a boat pole. I'm not breaking the law if I fly the Union Jack upside down. If an old salt wants to fly the correct flag at the correct time of the day then I'm not going to stop him. But to say that you're contributing to the breakdown of society because of a bit of fun is ridiculous.

 

Besides, society was finished when those appalling youths started dancing the Charleston in the 20's.

 

 

Eloquent common sense as always Carl

[bottle]

Slightly but it does involve a flag

 

Pirate birthday sunk by council

[Machpoint005]

Pirate birthday sunk by council

This is a case of blatant discrimination against pastafarians, for whom pirate regalia is an outward demonstration of their faith...

[ChrisPy]

The largest in our stock is 3 yards long !!!

I don't suppose it's a record, but the Municipality in Ankara has recently installed Turkish flags on the main roads entering the city. I would guess the poles are 300ft high and the flags must be 70ft x 40ft. incredible.

[carlt]

I don't suppose it's a record, but the Municipality in Ankara has recently installed Turkish flags on the main roads entering the city. I would guess the poles are 300ft high and the flags must be 70ft x 40ft. incredible.

The one that dangles under the Arc de Triomphe on Bastille day is a big'un.

[NB Alnwick]

I don't suppose it's a record, but the Municipality in Ankara has recently installed Turkish flags on the main roads entering the city. I would guess the poles are 300ft high and the flags must be 70ft x 40ft. incredible.

 

The Turks do seem to like their flag - the biggest we've seen is the Turkish Cypriot flag carved out of the mountains north of Nicosia . . .

 

 

Just to add that some nations take there flags very seriously and in 1996 a Greek Cypriot was beaten to death by a mob after he attempted to remove a Turkish Cypriot flag from its staff . . .

[ChrisPy]

seems the Pakistanis and the Bahrainis are competing for the largest - bigger than a football pitch.

 

PS saw a full admiral today pootling along through Bristle Arber on his narrowboat.

Edited June 10, 2007 by chris polley

[mayalld]

But they're maritime rules Dave. They don't apply on the canals. The rules of the road don't apply on the canals.

 

The rules of the road do apply on canals, except where the Navigation Authority has made rules to replace them (BW has), which is just the same position as estuaries, harbours, roadsteads and the like

 

I'm not breaking any rules if I fly Geri's union jack dress off a boat pole. I'm not breaking the law if I fly the Union Jack upside down. If an old salt wants to fly the correct flag at the correct time of the day then I'm not going to stop him. But to say that you're contributing to the breakdown of society because of a bit of fun is ridiculous.

 

Besides, society was finished when those appalling youths started dancing the Charleston in the 20's.

 

:-)

 

I make no direct connection between flying the wrong flag and the collapse of decent society.

 

I simply believe that the decline in society is largely as a result of the cumulative effect of many thousands of "oh, it doesn't matter" moments.

 

Anyway, on to the question of what laws you may, or may not be breaking...

 

The relevant Act is the Merchant Shipping Act 1995

 

313 "ship" includes every description of vessel used in navigation;

So, it is clear that a narrowboat is a ship for the purposes of the Act.

 

1.—(1) A ship is a British ship if—

• (a) the ship is registered in the United Kingdom under Part II; or
  

• ( the ship is, as a Government ship, registered in the United Kingdom in pursuance of an Order in Council under section 308; or
  

• © the ship is registered under the law of a relevant British possession; or
  

• (d) the ship is a small ship other than a fishing vessel and—
  • (i) is not registered under Part II, but
    

• (ii) is wholly owned by qualified owners, and
  

• (iii) is not registered under the law of a country outside the United Kingdom.
  

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1)(d) above—

• "qualified owners" means persons of such description qualified to own British ships as is prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State for the purposes of that paragraph; and
  

• "small ship" means a ship less than 24 metres in length ("length" having the same meaning as in the tonnage regulations).
  

So, it is also clear that a Narrowboat, owned by a British Citizen, or company, is (in the absence of registration in a foreign country) a "British ship"

 

2.—(1) The flag which every British ship is entitled to fly is the red ensign (without any defacement or modification) and, subject to subsections (2) and (3) below, no other colours.

 

(2) Subsection (1) above does not apply to Government ships.

 

(3) The following are also proper national colours, that is to say—

• (a) any colours allowed to be worn in pursuance of a warrant from Her Majesty or from the Secretary of State;
  

• ( in the case of British ships registered in a relevant British possession, any colours consisting of the red ensign defaced or modified whose adoption for ships registered in that possession is authorised or confirmed by Her Majesty by Order in Council.
  

So, a British ship can fly a Red Ensign, and no other flag

 

4.—(1) If any of the following colours, namely—

• (a) any distinctive national colours except—
  • (i) the red ensign,
    

• (ii) the Union flag (commonly known as the Union Jack) with a white border, or
  

• (iii) any colours authorised or confirmed under section 2(3)(; or
  

• ( any colours usually worn by Her Majesty's ships or resembling those of Her Majesty, or
  

• © the pendant usually carried by Her Majesty's ships or any pendant resembling that pendant,
  

are hoisted on board any British ship without warrant from Her Majesty or from the Secretary of State, the master of the ship, or the owner of the ship (if on board), and every other person hoisting them shall be guilty of an offence.

 

(2) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) above shall be liable—

• (a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum;
  

• ( on conviction on indictment, to a fine.
  

(3) If any colours are hoisted on board a ship in contravention of subsection (1) above, any of the following, namely—

• (a) any commissioned naval or military officer,
  

• ( any officer of customs and excise, and
  

• © any British consular officer,
  

may board the ship and seize and take away the colours.

 

(4) Any colours seized under subsection (3) above shall be forfeited to Her Majesty.

 

(5) In this section "colours" includes any pendant.

So, flying other flags on a narrowboat is an offence which carries a large fine

 

 

5.—(1) Subject to subsection (2) below, a British ship, other than a fishing vessel, shall hoist the red ensign or other proper national colours—

• (a) on a signal being made to the ship by one of Her Majesty's ships (including any ship under the command of a commissioned naval officer); and
  

• ( on entering or leaving any foreign port; and
  

• © in the case of ships of 50 or more tons gross tonnage, on entering or leaving any British port.
  

(2) Subsection (1)© above does not apply to a small ship (as defined in section 1(2)) registered under Part II.

 

So, whilst you aren't obliged to fly the flag, you must do so if you are signalled by a commissioned naval officer.

 

Probably best to carry a red duster in case you meet a naval chap pootling about on the canal!!

[tired old pirate]

The rules of the road do apply on canals, except where the Navigation Authority has made rules to replace them (BW has), which is just the same position as estuaries, harbours, roadsteads and the like

:-)

 

I make no direct connection between flying the wrong flag and the collapse of decent society.

 

I simply believe that the decline in society is largely as a result of the cumulative effect of many thousands of "oh, it doesn't matter" moments.

 

Anyway, on to the question of what laws you may, or may not be breaking...

 

The relevant Act is the Merchant Shipping Act 1995

 

313 "ship" includes every description of vessel used in navigation;

So, it is clear that a narrowboat is a ship for the purposes of the Act.

 

1.—(1) A ship is a British ship if—

• (a) the ship is registered in the United Kingdom under Part II; or
  

• ( the ship is, as a Government ship, registered in the United Kingdom in pursuance of an Order in Council under section 308; or
  

• © the ship is registered under the law of a relevant British possession; or
  

• (d) the ship is a small ship other than a fishing vessel and—
  • (i) is not registered under Part II, but
    

• (ii) is wholly owned by qualified owners, and
  

• (iii) is not registered under the law of a country outside the United Kingdom.
  

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1)(d) above—

• "qualified owners" means persons of such description qualified to own British ships as is prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State for the purposes of that paragraph; and
  

• "small ship" means a ship less than 24 metres in length ("length" having the same meaning as in the tonnage regulations).
  

So, it is also clear that a Narrowboat, owned by a British Citizen, or company, is (in the absence of registration in a foreign country) a "British ship"

 

2.—(1) The flag which every British ship is entitled to fly is the red ensign (without any defacement or modification) and, subject to subsections (2) and (3) below, no other colours.

 

(2) Subsection (1) above does not apply to Government ships.

 

(3) The following are also proper national colours, that is to say—

• (a) any colours allowed to be worn in pursuance of a warrant from Her Majesty or from the Secretary of State;
  

• ( in the case of British ships registered in a relevant British possession, any colours consisting of the red ensign defaced or modified whose adoption for ships registered in that possession is authorised or confirmed by Her Majesty by Order in Council.
  

So, a British ship can fly a Red Ensign, and no other flag

 

4.—(1) If any of the following colours, namely—

• (a) any distinctive national colours except—
  • (i) the red ensign,
    

• (ii) the Union flag (commonly known as the Union Jack) with a white border, or
  

• (iii) any colours authorised or confirmed under section 2(3)(; or
  

• ( any colours usually worn by Her Majesty's ships or resembling those of Her Majesty, or
  

• © the pendant usually carried by Her Majesty's ships or any pendant resembling that pendant,
  

are hoisted on board any British ship without warrant from Her Majesty or from the Secretary of State, the master of the ship, or the owner of the ship (if on board), and every other person hoisting them shall be guilty of an offence.

 

(2) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) above shall be liable—

• (a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum;
  

• ( on conviction on indictment, to a fine.
  

(3) If any colours are hoisted on board a ship in contravention of subsection (1) above, any of the following, namely—

• (a) any commissioned naval or military officer,
  

• ( any officer of customs and excise, and
  

• © any British consular officer,
  

may board the ship and seize and take away the colours.

 

(4) Any colours seized under subsection (3) above shall be forfeited to Her Majesty.

 

(5) In this section "colours" includes any pendant.

So, flying other flags on a narrowboat is an offence which carries a large fine

5.—(1) Subject to subsection (2) below, a British ship, other than a fishing vessel, shall hoist the red ensign or other proper national colours—

• (a) on a signal being made to the ship by one of Her Majesty's ships (including any ship under the command of a commissioned naval officer); and
  

• ( on entering or leaving any foreign port; and
  

• © in the case of ships of 50 or more tons gross tonnage, on entering or leaving any British port.
  

(2) Subsection (1)© above does not apply to a small ship (as defined in section 1(2)) registered under Part II.

 

So, whilst you aren't obliged to fly the flag, you must do so if you are signalled by a commissioned naval officer.

 

Probably best to carry a red duster in case you meet a naval chap pootling about on the canal!!

 

AAAARgh...... make it stop, make it stop

[John Orentas]

What is all this nonsense, there are no rules, laws or anything else relating to the use of flags on canals. An awful lot of hot air being wasted.

[mayalld]

AAAARgh...... make it stop, make it stop

 

We can't stop just when we are having fun.

 

The Merchant Shipping Act contains some other good stuff!

 

It defines a "United Kingdom Ship" as a British Ship that has been registered in accordance with part II (so far as narrowboats are concerned, this broadly means being on the SSR), and goes on to say...

 

105. The master of any United Kingdom ship may cause any person on board the ship to be put under restraint if and for so long as it appears to him necessary or expedient in the interest of safety or for the preservation of good order or discipline on board the ship.

Not, that could come in handy.

Edited June 11, 2007 by mayalld

[tired old pirate]

What is all this nonsense, there are no rules, laws or anything else relating to the use of flags on canals. An awful lot of hot air being wasted.

 

I did get a lot of grief from folk about flying a skull and crossbones, I was informed by several people that I could be hung for flying it.

 

The first one I ran through with a short cutlass and the others are now marooned on a small island on the river nene praying for death. No gold to speak of from any of them..... yoho,avast etc...

[mayalld]

What is all this nonsense, there are no rules, laws or anything else relating to the use of flags on canals. An awful lot of hot air being wasted.

 

Given that I have just quoted the laws that DO relate to the use of flags on canals, you would appear to be wrong!