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Use The Riser Wires


Alan de Enfield

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4 hours ago, Stilllearning said:

I may be missing something in your picture , but the boat seems to be sitting in the middle of the lock, with no rope going to the land....so how did you get back on board if you were singlehanding?

That's correct I didn't use any ropes - I thought that's what I said in my post?

Anyway, the boat's not in the middle of the lock in that picture.  I just climbed down the ladder and got back onto the roof.

3 hours ago, Stilllearning said:

Oh damn, I only saw the ladder on the left....

Ah, I see.

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3 hours ago, PhilAtterley said:

Climbing up or down slimy ladders in lock chamber walls is never a good idea, especially as there has been a tendency in recent years to fit ladders into insufficiently deep recesses which do not let you get your feet far enough on to the rungs to be sure that they will not slip off them. A better and safer way of getting back onto the boat pictured in the deep lock a few posts back would have been to get it moving by bowhauling with a line off the stern to get it moving enough to carry it's way under the bridge (that the photographer must have been standing on), and then get back onboard on the other side of the bridge. Carrying a boathook ashore suitable for picking up suitably coiled down and placed lines up forard would be a wise precaution.

I had no problem climbing down the ladder. I do it all the time. That's what they're for after all.

Edited by blackrose
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3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I had no problem climbing down the ladder. I do it all the time. That's what they're for after all.

In fact, it is not what they are for. The ladders that have been installed in canal locks, both single and double, in recent years have been put there solely for the purpose of meeting today's Health & Safety concerns - so that anyone falling into an empty or part empty lock, which these days will almost certainly have both sets of gates shut, can climb out of the chamber. Back in the working days of our canals there were no ladders in lock chambers, but the bigger locks on rivers such as the Trent were equipped with them, and despite being kept relatively free of slime through frequent use, climbing them was nobody's idea of fun, and is certainly something that would never be done unless there was absolutely no alternative. 

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11 minutes ago, PhilAtterley said:

In fact, it is not what they are for. The ladders that have been installed in canal locks, both single and double, in recent years have been put there solely for the purpose of meeting today's Health & Safety concerns - so that anyone falling into an empty or part empty lock, which these days will almost certainly have both sets of gates shut, can climb out of the chamber. Back in the working days of our canals there were no ladders in lock chambers, but the bigger locks on rivers such as the Trent were equipped with them, and despite being kept relatively free of slime through frequent use, climbing them was nobody's idea of fun, and is certainly something that would never be done unless there was absolutely no alternative. 

Well I'll carry on using the ladders because I find it the easiest and safest way, but if you have a problem using them then do it your way by all means.

Besides, if you bowhaul a boat out of a lock from a bridge how do you get the rope under the bridge? You just drop it onto the boat and then hope the boat is close enough to the towpath to grab it? It might just end up in the middle of the canal!

My boat weighs 30 tonnes. Getting it moving by bowhauling isn't easy and then once it is moving the momentum means it won't stop. To me in that situation from such a deep lock the whole idea isn't something that I would do.

Lock ladders might be slippery and involve some risk, but then so does bowhauling a boat out of a lock. I know which risk I'd rather take.

Edited by blackrose
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35 minutes ago, PhilAtterley said:

In fact, it is not what they are for. The ladders that have been installed in canal locks, both single and double, in recent years have been put there solely for the purpose of meeting today's Health & Safety concerns

If they have been put there to address H & S concerns I assume you mean they are post 1974.   Yet I am fairly certain I had used ladders in locks before that.  Memory isn't too certain but that bis how it seems.

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8 minutes ago, Jerra said:

If they have been put there to address H & S concerns I assume you mean they are post 1974.   Yet I am fairly certain I had used ladders in locks before that.  Memory isn't too certain but that bis how it seems.

British Waterways did install the odd ladder or two in some locks in the late 1960's, mainly on canalized river navigations, when the numbers of pleasure craft began to increase significantly, and some locks on river navigations like the Soar, and such as Cranfleet and Sawley on the upper Trent, where it was either very difficult or impossible to step ashore or aboard as the boat entered or left the empty chamber had always had them, but the wholesale fitting of two ladders in every lock on every waterway was certainly something that arose out of 70's and 80's H&S mania.

The broad Northern canals and canalized rivers invariably made provision for getting off as the boat entered through, or waited in the bottom gates while the lock was drawn off, not with ladders in the chamber but by means of rungs or steps set in to the gates themselves.

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1 minute ago, PhilAtterley said:

British Waterways did install the odd ladder or two in some locks in the late 1960's, mainly on canalized river navigations, when the numbers of pleasure craft began to increase significantly, and some locks on river navigations like the Soar, and such as Cranfleet and Sawley on the upper Trent, where it was either very difficult or impossible to step ashore or aboard as the boat entered or left the empty chamber had always had them, but the wholesale fitting of two ladders in every lock on every waterway was certainly something that arose out of 70's and 80's H&S mania.

The broad Northern canals and canalized rivers invariably made provision for getting off as the boat entered through, or waited in the bottom gates while the lock was drawn off, not with ladders in the chamber but by means of rungs or steps set in to the gates themselves.

Thank you that probably explains it.

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1 hour ago, blackrose said:

Besides, if you bowhaul a boat out of a lock from a bridge how do you get the rope under the bridge? You just drop it onto the boat and then hope the boat is close enough to the towpath to grab it? It might just end up in the middle of the canal!

My boat weighs 30 tonnes. Getting it moving by bowhauling isn't easy and then once it is moving the momentum means it won't stop. To me in that situation from such a deep lock the whole idea isn't something that I would do.

The answer to your first question is - you do not even bother to try, because there is no need to. The significance of the last sentence in the post you were replying to seems to have escaped you - I said - " Carrying a boathook ashore suitable for picking up suitably coiled down and placed lines up forard would be a wise precaution."  A 'suitable' boathook in this context would be one of sufficient length to enable you to reach and pick up the lines that you should/would have placed in appropriate positions BEFORE drawing the paddles.

As for your perceived difficulties in getting a boat displacing a mere 30 tons moving by means of bowhauling - you could not be more wrong - I have seen children bowhauling (narrowboat) butties loaded with close to that tonnage. If you are not equal to the task, perhaps you should consider taking up a less physically demanding hobby.

 

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8 hours ago, PhilAtterley said:

The answer to your first question is - you do not even bother to try, because there is no need to. The significance of the last sentence in the post you were replying to seems to have escaped you - I said - " Carrying a boathook ashore suitable for picking up suitably coiled down and placed lines up forard would be a wise precaution."  A 'suitable' boathook in this context would be one of sufficient length to enable you to reach and pick up the lines that you should/would have placed in appropriate positions BEFORE drawing the paddles.

As for your perceived difficulties in getting a boat displacing a mere 30 tons moving by means of bowhauling - you could not be more wrong - I have seen children bowhauling (narrowboat) butties loaded with close to that tonnage. If you are not equal to the task, perhaps you should consider taking up a less physically demanding hobby.

 

It must be wonderful to be so talented!!  If Blackrose decides it is safer to use a ladder then that is the way to do it. Have you ever been in this lock with a 30 ton wide beam and placed lines in appropriate positions before leaving the boat and not of course forgetting a suitable length boathook. In my opinion it is lunacy to allow a large boat like this to leave a lock with no connection to the bank when it is so simple to leave the boat with the centre rope. wrap the centre rope round a bollard and feed the rope out until the boat reaches the bottom of the lock, tie the rope, close the paddles, open the gates, take the rope and walk down the ladder......... unless you are frightened of heights?

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10 hours ago, PhilAtterley said:

I said - " Carrying a boathook ashore suitable for picking up suitably coiled down and placed lines up forard would be a wise precaution."  A 'suitable' boathook in this context would be one of sufficient length to enable you to reach and pick up the lines that you should/would have placed in appropriate positions BEFORE drawing the paddles.

Just curious: Where can I buy this boathook that will catch a line at the bottom of Bath Deep Lock?

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2 hours ago, Old Son said:

It must be wonderful to be so talented!!  If Blackrose decides it is safer to use a ladder then that is the way to do it. Have you ever been in this lock with a 30 ton wide beam and placed lines in appropriate positions before leaving the boat and not of course forgetting a suitable length boathook. In my opinion it is lunacy to allow a large boat like this to leave a lock with no connection to the bank when it is so simple to leave the boat with the centre rope. wrap the centre rope round a bollard and feed the rope out until the boat reaches the bottom of the lock, tie the rope, close the paddles, open the gates, take the rope and walk down the ladder......... unless you are frightened of heights?

This has nothing to do with being 'talented', or otherwise. I do not intend to waste any of my time or effort in responding to what you have written - far better to leave the readers of it to decide for themselves how much worth attaches to an opinion on how best to operate a lock from someone who closes paddles before opening gates, and talks about 'walking down' slimey, slippery vertical ladders with a rope in one hand !

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43 minutes ago, hounddog said:

Just curious: Where can I buy this boathook that will catch a line at the bottom of Bath Deep Lock?

I have absolutely no idea - why would you want to buy such a boathook, when all you need is one that is long enough to pick up a line from on the boat whilst standing on the towpath immediately below the bottom gates and/or the bridge over the lock tail ?

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7 minutes ago, bizzard said:

I go up and down lock ladders with a rope, but its not in my hand, I have spliced a loop on the end which goes over my arm which leaves that hand free to cling to the rungs.

Which is the same as Trent boat/bargemen did with the 4' eye in the end of the stop ropes that they sometimes had no option other than to climb slimey wet lockwall ladders with. However, it did not transform the practice into something safe, fun or done out of choice.

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I tend to tie a knot in the end of the rope that adds a loop which pulls smaller / tighter, then to keep my hands free for climbing ladders / gates I put the loop over my head.

This way the rope is secured and doesn't interfere with my headphone cord; as there's nothing worse than having an earphone pulled out mid ladder, it's a right faff to put it back in again on one of those slippy ladders

Edited by sirweste
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54 minutes ago, sirweste said:

I tend to tie a knot in the end of the rope that adds a loop which pulls smaller / tighter, then to keep my hands free for climbing ladders / gates I put the loop over my head.

This way the rope is secured and doesn't interfere with my headphone cord; as there's nothing worse than having an earphone pulled out mid ladder, it's a right faff to put it back in again on one of those slippy ladders

:lol:

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9 hours ago, PhilAtterley said:

I have absolutely no idea - why would you want to buy such a boathook, when all you need is one that is long enough to pick up a line from on the boat whilst standing on the towpath immediately below the bottom gates and/or the bridge over the lock tail ?

Next time you're in the west country you can come and show me how, you make it sound so easy.

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1 hour ago, hounddog said:

Next time you're in the west country you can come and show me how, you make it sound so easy.

The last time I was in that neck of the woods was around 48 years ago, when those locks down into the river at Bath were still derelict and awaiting repair. I went and looked at as many places along the whole length of the canal as I could get to by car after accompanying Tony Dunkley and Dave Houlston on some of their deliveries to Reading of Warwickshire coal loaded into 'Jaguar', 'Achilles', 'Hyperion' and 'Jupiter' at Atherstone for the K&A Restoration Society's Steam Dredger and Crofton Pumps in 1968-9. I do not have any plans to come down there again in the foreseeable future, but if that changes or you come up North with your boat then I would gladly give you a demonstration. 

I can quite understand how what I described would sound a bit alarming to someone who had never seen it done, or done it themselves, but it really is one of those things that are far easier in the doing than they sound in the telling.

Edited by PhilAtterley
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Going up the GU from Warwick, I prefer to go to the front of the boat and climb the gates to get to the top.

If Alan de Enfield tried to put his front end on Kegworth Deep cill and let it rise up, he would find that he either sank his boat from the gate paddles as the ground paddle (singular) is always blocked full of weed, or if on the left side, would get caught under the last remaining plank of wood and sink it that way.

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1 hour ago, PhilAtterley said:

The last time I was in that neck of the woods was around 48 years ago, when those locks down into the river at Bath were still derelict and awaiting repair. I went and looked at as many places along the whole length of the canal as I could get to by car after accompanying Tony Dunkley and Dave Houlston on some of their deliveries to Reading of Warwickshire coal loaded into 'Jaguar', 'Achilles', 'Hyperion' and 'Jupiter' at Atherstone for the K&A Restoration Society's Steam Dredger and Crofton Pumps in 1968-9. I do not have any plans to come down there again in the foreseeable future, but if that changes or you come up North with your boat then I would gladly give you a demonstration. 

I can quite understand how what I described would sound a bit alarming to someone who had never seen it done, or done it themselves, but it really is one of those things that are far easier in the doing than they sound in the telling.

except you have absolutely no idea of the downstream approach to bath deep lock and impossibility of taking a rope to any position where it is possible to retrieve the boat from the towpath so i am afraid i'll have to wait for you to come and apply the awesome weight of your experience to the problem. 

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1 hour ago, hounddog said:

except you have absolutely no idea of the downstream approach to bath deep lock and impossibility of taking a rope to any position where it is possible to retrieve the boat from the towpath so i am afraid i'll have to wait for you to come and apply the awesome weight of your experience to the problem. 

Is there any chance of you translating that into something that makes sense ?

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7 hours ago, PhilAtterley said:

Is there any chance of you translating that into something that makes sense ?

Whilst you experienced boatmen might be quite happy letting your boat leave a lock on its own and trust your boat hook will be such that you will catch the boat on the bank, us leisure boaters are not so experienced and want to make sure they do not put their boat or anybody else in danger. I was taught to make sure you stay connected to the boat, that way you have control over it. I have no issues climbing down a ladder, I take my time and I am in control. When I have no connection to the boat I am not. Both methods work, you do it your way and the rest of us will do it our way. There is no need to continue to tell us we are wrong.

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7 hours ago, PhilAtterley said:

Is there any chance of you translating that into something that makes sense ?

Ok. Making statements as to what to do in circumstances of which you have no idea is plain stupid. 

Easier now? 

 

 

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On ‎01‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 15:57, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

It is 'attention to detail' & 'staying alert' that makes a safe and successful locking.

Very sound advice - and not just when the lock is dauntingly deep. It was probably inattention which cost a boater her life in an innocuous-looking lock North of Cropredy a few years ago.

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