Springer 23 Overplating?

[Fozzi in Lancashire]

Hi Everyone, Been looking at a Springer 23, 1992 here on the Lancaster Canal. Lots of different reports on these boats re the hull thickness.

Seems as though they were built with a thin steel 3.5mm to 4mm thickness hull, so may need over-plating. It's for sale at 9K & has a 90's

Honda 9.9 o/b, last serviced in '09!! Inside average, needs quite a bit of tidying but has potential. Presume best way forward is a survey first?

Does anyone have any ideas of costs to overplate please? Just wondering if 9K is a bit top heavy if you're then going to spend a fortune later on!

Any help most appreciaited. Thanks. Cheers. Fozzi.

 

[rusty69]

 

Some useful info in above threads.sorry ignore second one. 

Are you Tony from Lancasters twin brother? 

Edited April 25, 2017 by rusty69

[lulu fish]

If it needs overplating, £9k is about £9k too much to pay for it. 

 

Probably looking at £5k - £6k to overplate + the hassle

[ditchcrawler]

Send a message to Martin Kedian on here. http://www.kedianengineering.co.uk/index.html

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, lulu fish said:

If it needs overplating, £9k is about £9k too much to pay for it. 

Agreed. Particularly with a tired interior and an unserviced outboard of unknown quality. It would have absolutely nothing going for it. 

[Neil2]

Waterbugs were 3mm plate all over so any pitting at all is a serious matter.  Having said that, there's not much to overplate as they only draw about 18" max.  But a V shaped hull so you need a proper fabricator.  Most bugs have been hacked about inside which is a shame because the Springer original fitout was actually very good quality.  

They are great fun but at the moment any Waterbug is virtually worthless unless in "showroom" condition and there won't be many of them about..  Even then, £9k is ridiculous.  For a vessel for chugging up and down the Lanky £9k will get you a very nice grp cruiser, take your pick.

 

[Canal321]

2 hours ago, lulu fish said:

 

Probably looking at £5k - £6k to overplate + the hassle

That's enough to over plate a 50 footer, up north. Where the boat is located. 

You will get it for half that in a yard I have used on the Leeds Liverpool. 

[Horace42]

I ask if it is worth overplating at all. As an aside if written off as worthless, where do boats go to die?

 

Perhaps I should said;  what do you do with a boat you can't sell.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Horace42

[lulu fish]

1 minute ago, Horace42 said:

I ask if it is worth overplating at all. As an aside if written off as worthless, where do boats go to die?

London

[matty40s]

8 minutes ago, lulu fish said:

London

via Whilton ....(locks obviously, grand union way down etc, for those nervous litigation fearing folks..)

 

For the OP, Springers were built using rather good steel in the main, and are remarkably sturdy boats. They are more likely to be rotting from the inside than out owing to wet bilges, however, there are still a lot around.

1.Get a survey, if it was built with 3.5 - 4mm steel and only has pits of 0 .5mm then you have a decent shell to look after.

2.Don't get a survey, enjoy the boat while you can, don;t leave expensive stuff onboard when you go out.....it may be wet when you come back......

Edited April 25, 2017 by matty40s

[MaryP]

My 23 foot Springer rotted from the inside out as the flooring was fixed, and there had been water leaks over the years. Not now! Painted the inside of the hull again this week.

It was overplated a couple of years ago and it cost £3000. I was happy to do this as the surveyor said it was worth it. Insurance Co. had requested a survey as it was 25 years old then. Also I have an inboard engine, the interior is virtually untouched, and I've had it 12 years now and love it!

I got a survey when I first bought it, and the survey saved me £3-4000!

Depends how much you like it!

[peterboat]

Plenty of Springers around in good condition that have never been plated one next to me at the moment and its only been blacked once in the last 12 years!!

[Crow]

if it was round lincoln area ,I'd fully plate it from waterline down for £3000 but who's to say Itl need all doing, mines 30 years old and  the only welding it's had done is when I cut it in half and extended it,and I can still fit it on a trailer, v bottom doesn't make diddly squat difference to any decent plater welder ,just means a bit ioverhead welding that takes a bit longer than in the flat  or horizontal, 9 k what planet does he live on, I gave 3500 for mine but have extended hull and cabin fitted front deck and doors 

fitted leg and inboard ,rear canopy the list goes on and on if you want it with a trailer and a Diahatsu 4 trak   I'd think about 16 k would buy it

and I can't see that ever happening ,

[Neil2]

13 hours ago, Crow said:

if it was round lincoln area ,I'd fully plate it from waterline down for £3000 but who's to say Itl need all doing, mines 30 years old and  the only welding it's had done is when I cut it in half and extended it,and I can still fit it on a trailer, v bottom doesn't make diddly squat difference to any decent plater welder ,just means a bit ioverhead welding that takes a bit longer than in the flat  or horizontal, 9 k what planet does he live on, I gave 3500 for mine but have extended hull and cabin fitted front deck and doors 

fitted leg and inboard ,rear canopy the list goes on and on if you want it with a trailer and a Diahatsu 4 trak   I'd think about 16 k would buy it

and I can't see that ever happening ,

Interesting if those chalk marks are hull thickness figures, I'm sure Waterbugs were 3mm overall so either your hull has increased in thickness or some may have been built slightly heavier..?  

[Crow]

Yes that was 18 month ago ,blue star surveys ,we went all over it 2.9  MM was the thinnest we could find ,it sounds thin to you lads with proper boats but he was happy. So am I ,it's been 30 years in and out water and  I don't see any reason why it won't last another 10 or 20  

[Chas78]

Fozzi you could just buy mine http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152526559659?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649 no plating worries and ready to go 

[magictime]

Sounds similar to our old boat in many ways. 24ft steel narrowboat, 90s-built, thin plate (4/3/3), Honda outboard, tired interior. We paid £6,500 without a survey, figuring that if it did need overplating, an extra spend of maybe £3k would still add up to a reasonable overall outlay.

The good news is that it didn't need overplating. The bad news - well, remember that 'tired interior'? If you've never owned a boat, you wouldn't believe how much it can cost just to work your way through a 'snagging list' of seemingly small-to-mid-sized jobs - upgrading the plumbing, the bathroom, kitchen worktop, etc. We must have spent another £6500 over the next couple of years, even if you treat blacking and painting as 'routine maintenance' and don't include them in the figure. Now OK, we had a nice boat at the end of that, but we'd probably have had a nicer boat and got more use out of it if we'd spent £13k upfront on something in 'ready-to-go' condition.

If you knew the hull and engine were in good condition and if you had the time, skills and inclination to do any work on the interior yourself, spending £7-£9k on this boat might not be completely unreasonable. But if there's a possibility of overplating being needed, and the interior needs a fair bit of work anyway... you're right, £9k sounds top-heavy. In your shoes I think I'd either try to stretch my budget by a few grand to get a narrowboat in better shape, or use that £9k budget to buy a really nice GRP cruiser. 

[Neil2]

2 hours ago, magictime said:

Sounds similar to our old boat in many ways. 24ft steel narrowboat, 90s-built, thin plate (4/3/3), Honda outboard, tired interior. We paid £6,500 without a survey, figuring that if it did need overplating, an extra spend of maybe £3k would still add up to a reasonable overall outlay.

The good news is that it didn't need overplating. The bad news - well, remember that 'tired interior'? If you've never owned a boat, you wouldn't believe how much it can cost just to work your way through a 'snagging list' of seemingly small-to-mid-sized jobs - upgrading the plumbing, the bathroom, kitchen worktop, etc. We must have spent another £6500 over the next couple of years, even if you treat blacking and painting as 'routine maintenance' and don't include them in the figure. Now OK, we had a nice boat at the end of that, but we'd probably have had a nicer boat and got more use out of it if we'd spent £13k upfront on something in 'ready-to-go' condition.

If you knew the hull and engine were in good condition and if you had the time, skills and inclination to do any work on the interior yourself, spending £7-£9k on this boat might not be completely unreasonable. But if there's a possibility of overplating being needed, and the interior needs a fair bit of work anyway... you're right, £9k sounds top-heavy. In your shoes I think I'd either try to stretch my budget by a few grand to get a narrowboat in better shape, or use that £9k budget to buy a really nice GRP cruiser. 

It's interesting that time after time folk come on the forum wanting a "basically sound boat" needing a refit, often these folk are tradesmen or skilled DIYers so for them the priority is a sound hull.  Yet when you think about it in many cases you'd be better off with a ready to go interior and a hull that needs work.  Sorting out a worn hull is relatively easy compared to the potential headaches involved in a refit, fortunately in this country we still have lots of skilled welders/fabricators who work for relatively low rates of pay.

Most potential buyers would be scared off by a hull in poor shape, but an otherwise  nice boat that just needs a new bottom is easily the cheapest way into narrowboat ownership.

[dmr]

A refitted old boat is still an old boat so its always a better financial investment to do a fit out on a brand new shell. But, so many new boats are bland and boring "clonecraft" whilst old boats, including Springers, can have a lot more character and charm and often look much more appropriate on our historic canal system. Anybody who rescues an old Springer deserves praise and encouragement. We are down the western end of the K&A just now and find the boats here much more interesting and pleasing than the stuff we will be passing on the T&M etc in the summer.

..............Dave

[Neil2]

25 minutes ago, dmr said:

A refitted old boat is still an old boat so its always a better financial investment to do a fit out on a brand new shell. But, so many new boats are bland and boring "clonecraft" whilst old boats, including Springers, can have a lot more character and charm and often look much more appropriate on our historic canal system. Anybody who rescues an old Springer deserves praise and encouragement. We are down the western end of the K&A just now and find the boats here much more interesting and pleasing than the stuff we will be passing on the T&M etc in the summer.

..............Dave

I agree absolutely with that.  The problem these days is there are a lot of fabricators turning out cheap shells that, on paper, look far better value for money than taking on a restoration project.  Our marina has just started buying in bare shells from a budget builder and you can't fault them for workmanship, but they are arrow straight, not a curve in sight, maximum cabin space, etc.  

The availability of these shells is creating another blight on the network, namely the scores of rusting grey primed boats where the guy is so busy sorting out the interior he hasn't got round to painting the outside yet, or maybe has run out of money.   

 

[Horace42]

51 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

I agree absolutely with that.  The problem these days is there are a lot of fabricators turning out cheap shells that, on paper, look far better value for money than taking on a restoration project.  Our marina has just started buying in bare shells from a budget builder and you can't fault them for workmanship, but they are arrow straight, not a curve in sight, maximum cabin space, etc.  

The availability of these shells is creating another blight on the network, namely the scores of rusting grey primed boats where the guy is so busy sorting out the interior he hasn't got round to painting the outside yet, or maybe has run out of money.   

 

What is your view of ready fitted out fully operational old boats that are nearing the over-plating stage - do you have it thickness tested - if so what is the minimum thickness that justifies the pro-active work - or wait for leaks and panic. The latter being the likely outcome if nothing is done - which for my boat (approaching 40 years old) could be sooner rather than later - possibly due to neglect of regular hull blacking and renewing anodes.    

Regretfully we are faced with giving up boating due to age related reduction in physical strength and mobility coupled with moving house (and losing our EOG mooring) so it will make sense to sell our boat.

That is why I ask the question about over-plating - is it better to do it now and hope to sell at a higher price to recover the cost - or do  I sell it 'as-is' at a price consistent with the condition, leaving the buyer to decide what is best for them.

Is there a standard sort of decision logic that is followed in practice.

Edited to add 'regular'

Edited April 27, 2017 by Horace42

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

Is there a standard sort of decision logic that is followed in practice.

Knowing the sort of problems that can (and do) occur after overplating I would be very very reluctant to buy an overplated boat -you do not know to what standard the work as been done - was it just a bodge job to get it sold ?

 

I would far rather buy something knowing what work was needed and that the price was commensurate with that work, I can then decide how the work is done, who does it, and to what standard the work is done.

[Neil2]

5 hours ago, Horace42 said:

What is your view of ready fitted out fully operational old boats that are nearing the over-plating stage - do you have it thickness tested - if so what is the minimum thickness that justifies the pro-active work - or wait for leaks and panic. The latter being the likely outcome if nothing is done - which for my boat (approaching 40 years old) could be sooner rather than later - possibly due to neglect of regular hull blacking and renewing anodes.    

Regretfully we are faced with giving up boating due to age related reduction in physical strength and mobility coupled with moving house (and losing our EOG mooring) so it will make sense to sell our boat.

That is why I ask the question about over-plating - is it better to do it now and hope to sell at a higher price to recover the cost - or do  I sell it 'as-is' at a price consistent with the condition, leaving the buyer to decide what is best for them.

Is there a standard sort of decision logic that is followed in practice.

Edited to add 'regular'

The problem with a boat of that vintage is knowing exactly what state the hull is in, I don't think thickness surveys are worth much, what you need to know is the extent of any pitting, and there's a lot of guesswork involved in that unless you go to the trouble of having the hull blasted back to bare metal.  

Here's a likely scenario - you place you boat on the market and an interested buyer commissions a survey.  The surveyor finds a few deep pits and recommends overplating, the buyer then has a powerful weapon to use against you in renegotiating the price.  The end result is you sell the boat for much less than it is really worth, you might even end up virtually giving it away. 

The alternative is you go to the expense/trouble of grit blasting the hull.  You might find it to be in A1 condition in which case you get a surveyors report, have the hull epoxy coated and you can then market the boat with total confidence.  The problem is if you find significant defects, then you have to decide whether to carry out the work yourself or sell the boat as a "project".  

Personally I would take ownership of the problem rather than selling the boat as is, where you are always going to be on the back foot.     

Edited April 27, 2017 by Neil2
punctuation

[magictime]

9 hours ago, Neil2 said:

It's interesting that time after time folk come on the forum wanting a "basically sound boat" needing a refit, often these folk are tradesmen or skilled DIYers so for them the priority is a sound hull.  Yet when you think about it in many cases you'd be better off with a ready to go interior and a hull that needs work.  Sorting out a worn hull is relatively easy compared to the potential headaches involved in a refit, fortunately in this country we still have lots of skilled welders/fabricators who work for relatively low rates of pay.

Most potential buyers would be scared off by a hull in poor shape, but an otherwise  nice boat that just needs a new bottom is easily the cheapest way into narrowboat ownership.

That's an interesting point. I suppose it all depends on exactly what needs doing, how much you're actually able to do yourself, and what the necessary materials and equipment are going to cost you. At one extreme, 'refreshing a tired interior' might be a matter of spending a few hundred quid on paint and soft furnishings and going around putting some cupboard doors on straight. At the other, it might mean spending thousands on wood, insulation, kitchen appliances, bathroom equipment and God knows what else, only to find that you still need to pay specialists a lot of money to do particular jobs that are outside your areas of competence (electrics, say). I suspect scenarios like the latter are pretty common, but the prospect of making a series of 'little' improvements somehow doesn't seem such a big deal as hauling the boat out of the water, slicing it to bits and welding great chunks of metal to it.

Then there are people like us who know damn well they don't have the skills to do any significant work on a boat themselves, but are hopelessly naive about how much it can possibly cost to fit out a 6 square foot wet room, knock up a little dining table, replace a kitchen worktop, put in a water heater, install a solar panel, and do just a few other 'little' jobs to get a basically sound boat in a properly usable condition...

Edited April 27, 2017 by magictime

[Crow]

I'd have to agree with majictime 100%.  After spending hrs and hrs welding and grinding ,fitting ,fetching stuff and buying £600 fridges  £1000 rear cover etc etc,I'd have been better off going to work and earning a bit more ,and just buy one that's finished and done,if there is such a thing.  I'm in a position that I can  work on boat at home and do anything I want to it,but I'd never do another,the best place for a project boat or one thats nearly done ,is  in my view best left where it is ,get one that's ready to go , Itl be cheaper in the end ,and you'll have less headaches