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Kelvin J Series, What Oil, How Much?


NorthwichTrader

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Can I ask what oil you're all using for your Kelvins?

Also, from recollection (I've misplaced the figures Dick Goble shared with me AGAIN) I've got a figure of 1 1/3 pints for the gearbox (the dipstick is unmarked), does that sound about right?

Also, I have no marks on the engine sump dipstick, either, so does anyone know the correct quantity (obviously we're overfull at the moment) in there?

Many thanks in advance!

Edited by NorthwichTrader
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On 17/04/2017 at 09:51, NorthwichTrader said:

Can I ask what oil you're all using for your Kelvins?

Also, from recollection (I've misled the figures Dick Goble shared with me AGAIN) I've got a figure of 1 1/3 pints for the gearbox (the dipstick is unmarked), does that sound about right?

Also, I have no marks on the engine sump dipstick, either, so does anyone know the correct quantity (obviously we're overfull at the moment) in there?

Many thanks in advance!

 

My memory is Dick told me 1/6th of a pint for a J series reversing gear box. Yes, one sixth of a pint! Oh actually he probably said one sixth of a gallon. That is the same as your figure of 1 1/3 pints. But a dipstick on your gearbox? Luxury, mine has no way of checking. ! I only know to top mine up because it starts getting hard to take it out of gear...

Ordinary SAE30 monograde engine oil goes in both my K1 engine and the J series gear attached to it. I can't produce a reference for this though. I believe the engine manuals are still available on Mike Skyner's site if you have a google.

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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Hi Stuart,

Hope you are all well?

From some notes made last time I changed the reverse oil, 6th imp gallon = 1.33 pints = 0.63L = 630 ml.

 

I use the same oil that I use for the engine as recommended by Phil Trotter:

Rock Oil

Viscol Diesel 30

25 Litre Drum

WO268067

However, I'm interested in what others use.

 

Ref your engine sump dipstick – if you like I’ll photograph my J2 one against a scale next time I’m on the boat – in 2 weeks?

However, from the J series manual it should hold 1.25 imp gal = 10 pints but I indicate full with only 7 pints, so perhaps my dipstick is the wrong one? :(

Any thoughts anyone?

 

Cheers for now Stuart,

Clive.

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I know little about Kelvins (but would love to own one) but used to be very involved with VW air cooled engines where SAE30 was also recommended.

My understanding is that with older engines its the additives rather than the viscosity that matters and SAE30 (usually from Morris) is recommended because it contains minimal additives. Usually a "modern" multigrade is probably as good, if not better, as long as a specialist low additive version is used, these will typically be API CC and might have a name like "classic". The purists will likely still insist on 30 monograde.

Its mostly down to the type of filter fitted. New engines have a full flow replaceable paper element, old engines have just a wire gauze to catch any big lumps. Modern oils include a dispersant in their additives to hold any particles in suspension to get caught in the filter. This is the last thing that old engines need, they want the crap to fall to the bottom of the sump as soon as possible to get removed at the next oil change.

..............Dave

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Engine: a low detergent mineral oil SAE 30 .  Quantity 10 pints.  Morris's do a good one as do Castrol in their heritage oils series.

Gearbox:  Same oil as the engine. Quantity 1/6 gallon ( a whisky bottle full!) Which is 1 1/3 pints too.

I think the 7 pint full dipstick may have been modified.  A good way to correct it and to get the OP some marks on his would be to drain the oil and take off one crankcase door. Then  put in fresh oil till the top of the oil strainer is submerged by about 3 mm.  That is the minimum mark. Add the remainder of the 10 pints.  That is the Full mark. Put the door back!

Do not overfill or you will proceed everywhere in a huge cloud of smoke!

N

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47 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Engine: a low detergent mineral oil SAE 30 .  Quantity 10 pints.  Morris's do a good one as do Castrol in their heritage oils series.

Gearbox:  Same oil as the engine. Quantity 1/6 gallon ( a whisky bottle full!) Which is 1 1/3 pints too.

I think the 7 pint full dipstick may have been modified.  A good way to correct it and to get the OP some marks on his would be to drain the oil and take off one crankcase door. Then  put in fresh oil till the top of the oil strainer is submerged by about 3 mm.  That is the minimum mark. Add the remainder of the 10 pints.  That is the Full mark. Put the door back!

Do not overfill or you will proceed everywhere in a huge cloud of smoke!

N

Thanks - that's most helpful.

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1 hour ago, dmr said:

I know little about Kelvins (but would love to own one) but used to be very involved with VW air cooled engines where SAE30 was also recommended.

My understanding is that with older engines its the additives rather than the viscosity that matters and SAE30 (usually from Morris) is recommended because it contains minimal additives. Usually a "modern" multigrade is probably as good, if not better, as long as a specialist low additive version is used, these will typically be API CC and might have a name like "classic". The purists will likely still insist on 30 monograde.

Its mostly down to the type of filter fitted. New engines have a full flow replaceable paper element, old engines have just a wire gauze to catch any big lumps. Modern oils include a dispersant in their additives to hold any particles in suspension to get caught in the filter. This is the last thing that old engines need, they want the crap to fall to the bottom of the sump as soon as possible to get removed at the next oil change.

..............Dave

Thanks Dave - nice to now understand the reason.

The SAE 30 Rock Oil I use is labled API SF/CC, so that's reassured me that it's a reasonable choice.

Edited by gbclive
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Wow, as always! Brilliant stuff!

Mike, many thanks for the info. I've also included for your reference a couple of pics (not brilliant) of what is probably an added dipstick.

Hi Clive, we're all well, as are you two I hope? Will message you later! :-) Many thanks for the dipstick offer, it was the sort of thing I'd have been thinking of, but BEngo's suggestion seems a very sensible way to go! I did recall Dick G saying a lot of the dipsticks had been cannibalised, so it could be the case with your's?

dmr/Dave...brilliant info! As Clive said, great to know some of the rationales behind some of these things, so thank-you!

BEngo, your usual brilliant self...will take up your idea on marking the stick, so many thanks!

Ben (2542) many thanks for the link, very much appreciated! :-)

AND, what a lovely little J, Dave M!

What a brilliant, brilliant, forum! Thank-you SO much, chaps! 

 

IMG_3297.JPG

IMG_3298.JPG

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On 4/18/2017 at 12:37, NorthwichTrader said:

 

Mike, many thanks for the info. I've also included for your reference a couple of pics (not brilliant) of what is probably an added dipstick.

 

IMG_3297.JPG

IMG_3298.JPG

 

Many thanks for the excellent pics!!

Is anyone here in a position to fabricate me one of these please?

 

 

 

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The hard part is getting the casting that bolts to the drain hole and to which the Copper tube is fitted.

If  you can get a spare ordinary blank flange for the drain hole it is not hard to silver solder in a tube to take a dipstick. It needs to have a vertical part which reaches below the centre of the shaft at least.

You can make a flange from steel plate but it needs to be FLAT or it will leak, so has to be sawn out of at least 1/4 plate and filed or machined flat one the holes are drilled.

Do the tube work and later thos year I will happily make you a dipstick with a nice brass top ( but no marks!) if you give details of the distance between the top of your  tube and the bottom.  And of course the ID of the tube you have chosen.

N

 

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56 minutes ago, BEngo said:

The hard part is getting the casting that bolts to the drain hole and to which the Copper tube is fitted.

If  you can get a spare ordinary blank flange for the drain hole it is not hard to silver solder in a tube to take a dipstick. It needs to have a vertical part which reaches below the centre of the shaft at least.

You can make a flange from steel plate but it needs to be FLAT or it will leak, so has to be sawn out of at least 1/4 plate and filed or machined flat one the holes are drilled.

Do the tube work and later thos year I will happily make you a dipstick with a nice brass top ( but no marks!) if you give details of the distance between the top of your  tube and the bottom.  And of course the ID of the tube you have chosen.

N

 

 

Quite. This is obvious to me which is why I invited anyone capable of making or sourcing one to make me a dipstick tube.

The silly comments about it being just a bit of 15mm copper tube were best ignored.

Thank you for the offer of a dipstick. I was hoping someone might however, be interested in making the flange (in return for suitable compensation obviously)!

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The silly comments about it being just a bit of 15mm copper tube were best ignored.

Oh, fair enough! I hadn't realised the casting wasn't standard on ALL J gearboxes. I assumed the only addition to my box was the copper pipe soldered onto the brass plate, which I naively thought replaced a former drain cover. Anyway, best of luck with it all!

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14 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Quite. This is obvious to me which is why I invited anyone capable of making or sourcing one to make me a dipstick tube.

The silly comments about it being just a bit of 15mm copper tube were best ignored.

Thank you for the offer of a dipstick. I was hoping someone might however, be interested in making the flange (in return for suitable compensation obviously)!

I can make the flange too, but not till problly August. Can you check the distance between the two securing bolts and the bolt diameters please? They should be 5/16 IIRC but sometimes they get drilled out and enlarged. If I make the Centre hole to fit a 15mm end fed elbow Would that be OK Onr would you prefer to fit a straight 15 mm pipe stub? 

Exchange for beer?

 

N

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On 17/04/2017 at 12:37, BEngo said:

 

I think the 7 pint full dipstick may have been modified.  A good way to correct it and to get the OP some marks on his would be to drain the oil and take off one crankcase door. Then  put in fresh oil till the top of the oil strainer is submerged by about 3 mm.  That is the minimum mark. Add the remainder of the 10 pints.  That is the Full mark. Put the door back!

 

Thanks BEngo - with "full" indicated on the dipstick, I have about 10mm above the top of the hex nut or 22mm above the top of the strainer casing.

Which does the 3mm refer to please?

Pics of half empty sump and dipstick attached.

Thanks again for this very helpful information.

 

Clive.

IMG_2287.JPG

IMG_2290.JPG

IMG_2289.JPG

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I was referring to the top of the strainer housing- the bottom of the brass  nut in your pics. That should be about the low mark. The idea is to ensure that the pump always sucks oil, which is easier on the flat waters we mostly inhabit these days.

Your dipstick looks pretty similar to mine except that there is no "Danger" wording above the full mark on yours.

N

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1 hour ago, BEngo said:

I was referring to the top of the strainer housing- the bottom of the brass  nut in your pics. That should be about the low mark. The idea is to ensure that the pump always sucks oil, which is easier on the flat waters we mostly inhabit these days.

Your dipstick looks pretty similar to mine except that there is no "Danger" wording above the full mark on yours.

N

Thanks - that's clear.

Actualy my dipstick does have "Danger" above the full mark as well as below the low point - just not very clear in the pic.

So.......... that leaves me pondering that if my J2 dipstick matches yours - how come I only need 7 pints to reach the full graduation?

That's a large discrepancy as a further 3 pints would put me well above the "full" indication.

When changing the oil I do wait a while for all of the oil to drain down into the sump, then mop out.

I've also checked I'm using imperial pints 

At least I now know that I am about 19mm deeper than the minimum when at minimum on my dipstick, so have not been depriving the engine of oil.

Can anyone think of an explanation?

Cheers,

Clive.

 

 

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I wonder if it has to do with using one set up and handbook for the J2, J3 & J4.  I realise the sump part of the crankcase is the same for all but once that is full you would need more oil to raise the level on a J4 than a J2.

You will know if there is too much oil in there.  I once overfilled mine (how and why is  a long story) and it didn't half smoke!

N

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1 hour ago, BEngo said:

I wonder if it has to do with using one set up and handbook for the J2, J3 & J4.  I realise the sump part of the crankcase is the same for all but once that is full you would need more oil to raise the level on a J4 than a J2.

That does make sense - in which case my baby J would need less oil?

So perhaps my dipstick is correct afterall and it's the generic J manual that's wrong in my case to suggest 10 pints?

Are all J series dipsticks identical regardless of the number of cylinders?

How much oil do other J2 owners require to reach full on the dipstick?

Thanks.

1 hour ago, BEngo said:

You will know if there is too much oil in there.  I once overfilled mine (how and why is  a long story) and it didn't half smoke!

So is that smoke out of the exhaust or smoke out of the breather?

I guess the breather seems more likely - even over filled I don't see how an inch or two extra well below the crankshaft would end up getting burnt.

However, I'm still on a steep learning curve - but thanks to this wonderful place and it's people, at least I'm able to learn :-) 

Cheers.

Clive.

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The limiting point is when the big ends/balance weights contact the oil. This results in a huge increase in the amount of oil being flung around in the crankcase  and the oil that goes straight up ends up running down the inside of the piston and onto the bores. There is enough to overwhelm the oil scraper rings, esp if the oil holes are a bit bunged up with carbon, so oil passes up into the compression ring belt and on into the combustion space.  Mucho exhaust smoke, then compression rings gum up and stop working well giving blow by and mucho smoking at both breathers as well as oil coming out of the front breather/oil filler.

Piston cooling and Gudgeon pin lubrication is vastly improved though!

N

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