Inverter - Lidl £22.99

[OliveOyl]

21 hours ago, Horace42 said:

Here's the service manual for the inverter:

http://www.lidl-service.com/static/6388825/61667_EN_FI_SV_DA.pdf

It is a modified sine wave type - OK for some machines - but in my view a bit 'iffy' for digital things etc - TV's -DVD players etc. that worrk better with pure sine-waves.  But it might work. You must make sure the wattage of the inverter is more than the wattage of the TV. or equipment connected to it.

Don't worry about stand-by power consumption. Arrange for the TV to be switched off by using the 12v inverter input switch. So they both go off together.

And measuring amps - it is easier to do this on the 12VDC side - providing your meter has a DC amp range large enough (40amps for the Lidl inverter.)  If not then measure the amps on the 240 vac side. Beware! there are electric shock risks when trying to measure amps in the 240 vac circuit. You need to disconnect or cut wires to bare the ends to insert the meter in series to measure current.

Have a look here: (slow to load - but with static pictures)  There are loads of other sites - most with videos - that run for ten minutes and talk a lot before they tell you anything useful.

http://www.wikihow.com/Measure-Amperage

Goodnight - time for bed.

Thanks Horace.

[OliveOyl]

Sorry y'all, tis Aldi not Lidl!

For the aficionadoes amongst you, this is what they say about it:-

This 300W Inverter converts 12V vehicle battery power into 230 volts of AC power. It can be used in your vehicle to operate TVs, laptops, tools and lights.

Accessories Included

Instruction Manual

Contents

• Inverter
• 1m red and black clip cables
• 2 x 35A spare fuses

Features

• 300W power inverter converts 12v vehicle battery power into 230v of AC power
• Maximum continuous power = 600W
• Peak power = 1200W
• Waveform: modified sine wave
• Input voltage: DC12V, AC receptacle: 230V/50HZ
• Output receptacle: one BS socket
• With external fuses: 2 x 35A (easy to replace)
• Best useful efficiency: more than 90%
• Over-voltage, overload, short-circuit and over-temperature protection and lack voltage shut off
• With USB outputs: 5V 1000mA

Suitable Use

Inside vehicles to operate many types of appliances that use AC power such as TV's, VCRs, portable computers, power tools and lights for emergency use or camping use

• Brand: Auto XS
• Colour: Silver
• Dimensions: 230x125x53mm
• Material: Aluminium case
• Product Type: Caravan Accessories

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[stegra]

3 minutes ago, OliveOyl said:

Sorry y'all, tis Aldi not Lidl!

For the aficionadoes amongst you, this is what they say about it:-

This 300W Inverter converts 12V vehicle battery power into 230 volts of AC power. It can be used in your vehicle to operate TVs, laptops, tools and lights.

Accessories Included

Instruction Manual

Contents

• Inverter
• 1m red and black clip cables
• 2 x 35A spare fuses

Features

• 300W power inverter converts 12v vehicle battery power into 230v of AC power
• Maximum continuous power = 600W
• Peak power = 1200W
• Waveform: modified sine wave
• Input voltage: DC12V, AC receptacle: 230V/50HZ
• Output receptacle: one BS socket
• With external fuses: 2 x 35A (easy to replace)
• Best useful efficiency: more than 90%
• Over-voltage, overload, short-circuit and over-temperature protection and lack voltage shut off
• With USB outputs: 5V 1000mA

Suitable Use

Inside vehicles to operate many types of appliances that use AC power such as TV's, VCRs, portable computers, power tools and lights for emergency use or camping use

• Brand: Auto XS
• Colour: Silver
• Dimensions: 230x125x53mm
• Material: Aluminium case
• Product Type: Caravan Accessories

 

 

 

I've just looked on Aldi's website and they're selling a 12v as well. might suit you, depending on your budget:

https://www.aldi.co.uk/21-5"-full-hd-caravan-tv-dvd-combi/p/077304145400500

[OliveOyl]

1 minute ago, stegra said:

I've just looked on Aldi's website and they're selling a 12v as well. might suit you, depending on your budget:

https://www.aldi.co.uk/21-5"-full-hd-caravan-tv-dvd-combi/p/077304145400500

I saw it thanks, and am now torn - especially as I may have to go up to Cumbria and rent a falt for a few months - could be handy as the Aldi TV can do both 12v and mains .

[jam]

Had an XS inverter from Aldi some years ago and it ran well for TV, Laptop and a few other low powered bits. Bought one of their 12/230v TV's last year and it runs well on 12v or mains.

[cuthound]

Duplicate post deleted

Edited March 31, 2017 by cuthound

[cuthound]

9 hours ago, OliveOyl said:

OK, so south meaning downthe coventry canal, thru Huddlesford, Whittington, Hopwas . . . . . then it goes right for Brum or left for Coventry, so which way should I go then? Curdworth looks like millions of locks and I don't fancy going to Aston - might get hi jacked . Oh lord, just looked at gong left up the Conventry . . . Atherstone locks +++++++

Olive (who wants an easy intro to the cut)

If you want to avoid heavy locking, then continuing on the Coventry Canal is the way to go. You could take a detour up the Ashby Canal, which is 22 miles lock free (44 there and back). Dont worry about Atherstone Locks, they are well maintained and easy.

If you continue on the Coventry look out for my boat and give us a wave as you pass

[Horace42]

On 29/03/2017 at 21:00, alan_fincher said:

 

 

I would disagree with both the above comments, which to my view in no way supports my own evidence, including from readings I have taken.

Most 300 Watt (ish) cheap modified sine wave inverters will turn out to be at least about 90% efficient, and most will draw only a very small standby current when not actually powering anything.

Bigger, more expensive, inverters will also be about 90% efficient or more, but the higher they are rated in power terms, the higher the current they draw when not actually powering anything is likely to be.

Only using a small inverter in cases like this, will generally be a relatively efficient way of getting enough "mains" AC power from your 12 volt  battery bank.

I am wondering if those who are saying otherwise have actually put meters on cheap small inverters to see how efficient they are?

Our  previous boat had no inverter capability beyond a basic 300W badged Maplin job, (cost about £25), and it was surprisingly efficient.

Good to hear from someone with experience of actual use.

But where the word 'cheap' is used - implying good value when comparing items to find the lowest price. Whereas in design engineering circles 'cheap' often turns out to be 'inferior' - a general maxim - Buy cheap, buy twice!

A lot comes back to warranty's and after-sale service of the suppliers name and reputation.  I guess products supplied by Maplin would be a good choice.

 

[jam]

9 hours ago, Horace42 said:

A lot comes back to warranty's and after-sale service of the suppliers name and reputation.  I guess products supplied by Maplin would be a good choice.

 

With a 12 month warranty, yet Aldi have a 3 year warranty!

[bizzard]

Many Analogue tube telly's weren't keen on running off small cheap inverters though, often produced moving candy striped diagonal rainbowy streaks and stripes on the screen. You thought you had a migraine attack comin on.  I have an old 200w Switchmode inverter £125 15 years ago. It ran a tube telly beautifully and now runs my cheap 14'' Goodmans LED dodgital telly fine too.

[MtB]

23 hours ago, OliveOyl said:

OK, so south meaning downthe coventry canal, thru Huddlesford, Whittington, Hopwas . . . . . then it goes right for Brum or left for Coventry, so which way should I go then? Curdworth looks like millions of locks and I don't fancy going to Aston - might get hi jacked . Oh lord, just looked at gong left up the Conventry . . . Atherstone locks +++++++

Olive (who wants an easy intro to the cut)

 

The Atherstone flight is LOVELY! 

GURLS. Huh. Any excuse not to come down south where the BEST cruising and community is. 

No scrub that. The K&A is full. Ok?

[Horace42]

2 hours ago, jam said:

With a 12 month warranty, yet Aldi have a 3 year warranty!

Great! Go for it! Why not!

[OliveOyl]

On 31/03/2017 at 22:26, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The Atherstone flight is LOVELY! 

GURLS. Huh. Any excuse not to come down south where the BEST cruising and community is. 

No scrub that. The K&A is full. Ok?

Oi Mike, I am a COMPLETE beginner and sailing solo. Yes, I am a gurl and proud to be so - I just need to get me courage up 

[Sea Dog]

On 29/03/2017 at 18:59, OliveOyl said:

I don't fancy sitting in silence every evening.

A radio will fix that with a lot less faff...

[tonyt40]

Now reduced to £18.99 in my local Aldi. 

[mango]

On 29 March 2017 at 21:16, alan_fincher said:

They vary obviously, but I have had several cheap MSW inverters of 300W or less, (and never paid more than about ££0) for one, and none would use as much as half an amp in standby.

So actually a better bet in an application like this, maybe, than spending mega-bucks on a highly expensive Victron.

Obviously I don't know what the Lidl one will use in standby, (unless there is a spec sheet somewhere?).

I have found the same with small MSW inverters of different makes.  On the other hand, the small sine wave inverters that I have tested have drawn a significantly higher current off load.  MSW inverters can sometime cause problems with TV pictures and sound, but that depends on the TV.  Every laptop that I have tested has worked fine on an MSW inverter.

[Gordias]

19 hours ago, mango said:

I have found the same with small MSW inverters of different makes.  On the other hand, the small sine wave inverters that I have tested have drawn a significantly higher current off load.  MSW inverters can sometime cause problems with TV pictures and sound, but that depends on the TV.  Every laptop that I have tested has worked fine on an MSW inverter.

Do you mean problems with CRT vs LCD TVs, or different LCD TV's?

I don't know for sure, but based on a very quick look at wikipedia I think this is (more-or-less) true for TV's and inverters:

AFAIK LCD's run on low-voltage DC, and (AFAIK again) LED back-lit LCDs don't need any higher-voltage components.  I can't see the internal TV component that converts a TV's 240/60Hz A/C input to e.g 12V DC caring about receiving a "blocky" sine wave generated by a simpler inverter.  If anything I'd expect "blocky" input to be more accurately converted to DC

CRTs  are different of course.  They use highish voltages, and have a scan rate of about 15 KHz for lighting the phosphor dots on the screen.  Assuming they use analog circuits to increase the frequency of the A/C input for the magnetic field that generates the scan, you'd expect them to require quite smooth sine waves, and to get "blocky" effects on the screen (stripes with messed up colors perhaps) if they were fed a "blocky" sine wave A/C.  Analog-Analog sound could easily have the same problem, but I'm not sure how the sound would be affected by input frequency errors - perhaps correct volume and timing, but "flat" sections in the pitch ("sound stripes"

I wouldn't expect any symptoms with heating equipment, and very little or none with simple motors (e.g. electric fridge), even old ones. Ditto household (DC) electronics.

I'd also expect to be able to go into a modern TV, find the DC output, and hook it up via a DC voltage converter direct to a 12V battery.  You might have to make sure the circuit was dynamic (measures actual input voltage accurately) but the "programmable" components for this seem to be quite cheap.

 

Edited June 15, 2017 by Gordias

[WotEver]

The problem with feeding MSW to anything with a switched-mode power supply (which is just about anything these days) is that all of the high energy high frequency harmonics in a square wave will severely stress components which were designed to accept a sine wave. 

Transformers generally just run hot and hum a bit. 

Both of the above are (very!) broad approximations but point out where the problems lay. 

[mango]

On 15 June 2017 at 08:30, Gordias said:

Do you mean problems with CRT vs LCD TVs, or different LCD TV's?

I don't know for sure, but based on a very quick look at wikipedia I think this is (more-or-less) true for TV's and inverters:

AFAIK LCD's run on low-voltage DC, and (AFAIK again) LED back-lit LCDs don't need any higher-voltage components.  I can't see the internal TV component that converts a TV's 240/60Hz A/C input to e.g 12V DC caring about receiving a "blocky" sine wave generated by a simpler inverter.  If anything I'd expect "blocky" input to be more accurately converted to DC

CRTs  are different of course.  They use highish voltages, and have a scan rate of about 15 KHz for lighting the phosphor dots on the screen.  Assuming they use analog circuits to increase the frequency of the A/C input for the magnetic field that generates the scan, you'd expect them to require quite smooth sine waves, and to get "blocky" effects on the screen (stripes with messed up colors perhaps) if they were fed a "blocky" sine wave A/C.  Analog-Analog sound could easily have the same problem, but I'm not sure how the sound would be affected by input frequency errors - perhaps correct volume and timing, but "flat" sections in the pitch ("sound stripes"

I wouldn't expect any symptoms with heating equipment, and very little or none with simple motors (e.g. electric fridge), even old ones. Ditto household (DC) electronics.

I'd also expect to be able to go into a modern TV, find the DC output, and hook it up via a DC voltage converter direct to a 12V battery.  You might have to make sure the circuit was dynamic (measures actual input voltage accurately) but the "programmable" components for this seem to be quite cheap.

 

Sorry for the delay in replying.  I have seen interference problems with both CRT and LED-TVs.  I'm going back a few years so imagine that they would predated LED back-lit types.  In other cases, TVs have worked fine on the cheap inverters and as I said, I have never had a problem with laptops.

I know what you mean about CRT TVs, where both the frame and line oscillators could affect surrounding equipment.  I assume that the oscillator used in an inverter could also create RF interference.  

[mango]

19 hours ago, WotEver said:

The problem with feeding MSW to anything with a switched-mode power supply (which is just about anything these days) is that all of the high energy high frequency harmonics in a square wave will severely stress components which were designed to accept a sine wave. 

Transformers generally just run hot and hum a bit. 

Both of the above are (very!) broad approximations but point out where the problems lay. 

Whether it is the high frequency harmonics or the 'modified sine wave' which is nothing like a sine wave, there is a risk of equipment damage.  The only problem I have experienced was when I killed a compact fluorescent lamp when running it on a MSW inverter powered by a car battery during a power cut.  It had been working fine and died within a minute on the inverter.

[WotEver]

5 hours ago, mango said:

Whether it is the high frequency harmonics or the 'modified sine wave' which is nothing like a sine wave...

Same thing. Modified Sine Wave would be better written as Chopped Square Wave. The leading edge of a square wave effectively contains many high frequency harmonics, plus the leading edge often overshoots (a lot!), meaning that the short term peak voltage is way higher than you might expect. 

[Gordias]

11 hours ago, WotEver said:

Same thing. Modified Sine Wave would be better written as Chopped Square Wave. The leading edge of a square wave effectively contains many high frequency harmonics, plus the leading edge often overshoots (a lot!), meaning that the short term peak voltage is way higher than you might expect. 

I was just reading about a technique called Pulse-Width Modulation as a side effect of my current interest in Raspberry Pi  single-board computers.

Is that what causes the problems you're describing? 

It certainly looks like it could: it sends short pulses of fixed-voltage current where the "average" (the integral of the pulses) is a blocky sine wave.  The surations vary, but actual voltage is always the same (except flipped between plus & minus once per half-wavelength) and is the same as the peaks of the sine wave.  I can imagine this having all kinds of weird side-effects in equipment that's not expecting it

Edited June 17, 2017 by Gordias

[mango]

33 minutes ago, Gordias said:

I was just reading about a technique called Pulse-Width Modulation as a side effect of my current interest in Raspberry Pi  single-board computers.

Is that what causes the problems you're describing? 

It certainly looks like it could: it sends short pulses of fixed-voltage current where the "average" (the integral of the pulses) is a blocky sine wave.  The surations vary, but actual voltage is always the same (except flipped between plus & minus once per half-wavelength) and is the same as the peaks of the sine wave.  I can imagine this having all kinds of weird side-effects in equipment that's not expecting it

PWM has been used for power control for years, as an alternative to the phase control used in the likes of lamp dimmers.  I don't think we will see PWM used in cheap inverters anytime soon.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Gordias said:

I was just reading about a technique called Pulse-Width Modulation as a side effect of my current interest in Raspberry Pi  single-board computers.

Is that what causes the problems you're describing? 

Nope. A square wave can be considered as the fundamental sine wave with many harmonics superimposed.

If you take a 50Hz sine wave and superimpose a 100Hz sine wave, then 150Hz, 200Hz, 400Hz, 800Hz, 1.6kHz etc the waveform will approach the shape of a square wave. 

Couple this with the fact that with a cheap inverter the rising edge of the square wave doesn't stop cleanly at the peak voltage but overshoots it (sometimes quite considerably) for a few milliseconds, you can see why some equipment doesn't like MSW inverters at all. 

[Gordias]

Mango and WotEver

Thanks for the info.  All this analog stuff is a bit strange for a software guy.  We don't have harmonics or values coming up too high or too low: there are no grey areas between my zeros and ones  

I read the wikipedia page on inverters, and was quite surprised to see that "modified sine wave" is so close to a square wave.  This is just a matter of perspective I suppose.  For a software guy generating the "on/off" timer sequence for PWM at a few tens of Hz would be very easy. 

OTOH all this hardware stuff is weird and scary.   I looked up "Switched-mode_power_supply" (seems these work well with square waves) but started getting a headache almost immediately

This leads to a question, but sorry in advance if it's a stupid one:  why isn't this done with a digital controller + a controllable component that turns 12V DC into a controllable range of output voltages up to 240 + a controllable component to switch +12V to - 12V?  Digital controllers not reliable?  Components expensive for consumer gear?  Something else?