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Boat Buyers Beware...Mysterton Mystery


matty40s
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On 14/03/2017 at 14:11, matty40s said:

One of the boats had a deposit taken and was ready to be moved to a new location by the buyers. The boats name had a single digit changed.

 

The assets being sold by the administrator seems by far the most likely explanation, with possibly the failed business owner in denial and obstructing and opposing the Administrator every step of the way. Not an unusual scenario.  

So naturally the administrator stops keeping the proprietor informed of his steps and sells some boats, and eventually the proprietor notices the boats have gone as the marina begins to look a bit empty and jumps to the conclusion they have been stolen, and calls the police. 

BUT... if this scenario is broadly correct, what does this bit of Matty's post mean? WHO had taken a deposit on one of the boats? Was the failed business proprietor attempting to sell the boats as well as the administrator, neither knowing what the other was doing? Why would one digit of a boat name be changed? Hardly a committed attempt to disguise the ID of a boat is it?

Who is it circulating the PDFs informing the boating world of the thefts? Has anyone here actually seen one to post up?

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31 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The assets being sold by the administrator seems by far the most likely explanation, with possibly the failed business owner in denial and obstructing and opposing the Administrator every step of the way. Not an unusual scenario.  

So naturally the administrator stops keeping the proprietor informed of his steps and sells some boats, and eventually the proprietor notices the boats have gone as the marina begins to look a bit empty and jumps to the conclusion they have been stolen, and calls the police. 

BUT... if this scenario is broadly correct, what does this bit of Matty's post mean? WHO had taken a deposit on one of the boats? Was the failed business proprietor attempting to sell the boats as well as the administrator, neither knowing what the other was doing? Why would one digit of a boat name be changed? Hardly a committed attempt to disguise the ID of a boat is it?

Who is it circulating the PDFs informing the boating world of the thefts? Has anyone here actually seen one to post up?

Spot on - it is a dispute between the administrator/liquidator (who probably owns the boats) and the former company owner (who probably thinks he owns the boats but doesn't).

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On 15/03/2017 at 10:28, WJM said:

Spot on - it is a dispute between the administrator/liquidator (who probably owns the boats) and the former company owner (who probably thinks he owns the boats but doesn't).

 

Ah, so it looks as though both the administrator AND the failed business owner have sold the same boat to two different people, and the administrator sale completed first! So the new buyers took it away, leading the failed business owner to report it stolen rather than accept the reality of the situation, which is the administrator is now running the business and keeping him in the dark.

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In sure I recall reading somewhere (possibly on here?) that there was outstanding finance secured on these boats. That might complicate the ownership situation and who has authority to sell. 

Glad I didn't pursue these boats further after initial contact, something just didn't seem to add up when I was enquiring about buying one. 

Tom 

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On 15/03/2017 at 10:56, Tom and Bex said:

In sure I recall reading somewhere (possibly on here?) that there was outstanding finance secured on these boats. That might complicate the ownership situation and who has authority to sell. 

Glad I didn't pursue these boats further after initial contact, something just didn't seem to add up when I was enquiring about buying one. 

Tom 

 

Yes this seems likely too, and yes always a good move listening to your internal radar.

But how can a loan be 'secured' on a boat, unless it is a marine mortgage? And I doubt these boats were Lloyd registered (as I understand they have to be to get a mortgage) and mortgaged. More likely a bank has some sort of general charge over the assets of the business so needs to approve the sale of anything. Given the administrator will have been appointed by the bank, his sales will be legit. 

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1 hour ago, Jess-- said:

the format is right

Crime 241
Station SE
Date 08/3/2017

Our local police force use that format for an incident number, which means something was logged. A crime reference number is all numbers.

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13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes this seems likely too, and yes always a good move listening to your internal radar.

But how can a loan be 'secured' on a boat, unless it is a marine mortgage? And I doubt these boats were Lloyd registered (as I understand they have to be to get a mortgage) and mortgaged. More likely a bank has some sort of general charge over the assets of the business so needs to approve the sale of anything. Given the administrator will have been appointed by the bank, his sales will be legit. 

HP (Hire Purchase) is a very common way of financing strong assets like this with high residual values. With HP the ownership passes from the lender to the 'Hirer' with the final payment. Even if a borrower has made 35 of the 36 repayments the full ownership remains with the lender. That is how it is, that is what was wrtiiten clearly on the agreement signed at the beginning.

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On 15/03/2017 at 11:19, WJM said:

HP (Hire Purchase) is a very common way of financing strong assets like this with high residual values. With HP the ownership passes from the lender to the 'Hirer' with the final payment. Even if a borrower has made 35 of the 36 repayments the full ownership remains with the lender. That is how it is, that is what was wrtiiten clearly on the agreement signed at the beginning.

 

Ah good point. But there the loan is not 'secured' on the boat (the term used), the hire purchase company actually owns the boat then transfers ownership to the customer on completion of the schedule of payments, AIUI. ISTR with HP there is some sort of provision to prevent the HP co disposing of the asset without compensation to the customer once more than 2/3 of the scheduled payments have been made. Or something like that. 

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4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Ah good point. But there the loan is not 'secured' on the boat (the term used), the hire purchase company actually owns the boat then transfers ownership to the customer on completion of the schedule of payments, AIUI. ISTR with HP there is some sort of provision to prevent the HP co disposing of the asset without compensation to the customer once more than 2/3 of the scheduled payments have been made. Or something like that. 

An HP agreement isn't 'secured' in the traditional sense like a mortgage. But the lender is in full control of the asset until the final contract and 'Option Fee' is paid. I suspect that a lot of borrowers fail to read and understand the contract they signed and then rail at their perceived injustice when the lender exercises the rights that they gave them.

 

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14 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Ah good point. But there the loan is not 'secured' on the boat (the term used), the hire purchase company actually owns the boat then transfers ownership to the customer on completion of the schedule of payments, AIUI. ISTR with HP there is some sort of provision to prevent the HP co disposing of the asset without compensation to the customer once more than 2/3 of the scheduled payments have been made. Or something like that. 

The simple way to control the risk with HP is to spot the problem coming. Sell the asset yourself before your relationship with the lender hits the buffers, repay the settlement figure and keep what is left. Leave it too late and you loose the lot.

Edited by WJM
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42 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes this seems likely too, and yes always a good move listening to your internal radar.

But how can a loan be 'secured' on a boat, unless it is a marine mortgage? And I doubt these boats were Lloyd registered (as I understand they have to be to get a mortgage) and mortgaged. More likely a bank has some sort of general charge over the assets of the business so needs to approve the sale of anything. Given the administrator will have been appointed by the bank, his sales will be legit. 

Boats don't need to be Lloyd registered to get a marine mortgage.  Several companies offer loans secured against boats.

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7 minutes ago, WJM said:

The simple way to control the risk with HP is to spot the problem coming. Sell the asset yourself before your relationship with the lender hits the buffers, repay the settlement figure and keep what is left. Leave it too late and you loose the lot.

 

You can not sell what you don't own.

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On 15/03/2017 at 11:46, lulu fish said:

Boats don't need to be Lloyd registered to get a marine mortgage.  Several companies offer loans secured against boats.

 

A marine mortgage is not the same thing as a secured loan. RoyScot Larch were the last firm to offer marine mortgages and they have now left the market.

Maybe someone with a proper marine mortgage on a narrow boat could confirm if they needed Lloyds registration, or not...

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9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

A marine mortgage is not the same thing as a secured loan. RoyScot Larch were the last firm to offer marine mortgages and they have now left the market.

Maybe someone with a proper marine mortgage on a narrow boat could confirm if they needed Lloyds registration, or not...

 

My friends had a mortgage from Roy Scott Larch, no Lloyd registration necessary. 

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2 minutes ago, mross said:

Oh, do you have to agree with the HP people first?  I've never used it.

You get a settlement figure from the lender. You advise your buyer that the asset is currently encumbered but will be clear at the time of sale. Then on the day of sale you clear the HP (you may briefly need bridging finance), the HP lender releases the asset  - and you sell. And you pocket the remaining residual.

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19 minutes ago, mross said:

You can not sell what you don't own.

Interesting point, and not many people know that - hence the caveat emptor - the buyer's problem?

If it is a genuine sale - the WJM advice is good - because a genuine hp company would prefer their money in default cases - rather than get involved in complicated asset disposal problems - where they are only interested in recovering the outstanding debt (and costs) - usually by forced sale at auction - often below value.

The 2/3rds break-point (or thereabouts) came in by law to prevent crooked hp companies making a profit by immediately seizing goods in default of only a couple of missed payments.

So in a sense you own the goods until 2/3rds - or being pragmatic - you own the goods outright because you have them - possession is 9 tenths of the law - isn't it said?

Buy you are right - if you are not the legal owner you cannot sell the goods.

Wasn't that the nub of the issue when a boat-share company went bust a coupe of years ago? The time share owners who bought their shares - found they only owned the right to use the boat - but not the actual boat.

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2 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes this seems likely too, and yes always a good move listening to your internal radar.

But how can a loan be 'secured' on a boat, unless it is a marine mortgage? And I doubt these boats were Lloyd registered (as I understand they have to be to get a mortgage) and mortgaged. More likely a bank has some sort of general charge over the assets of the business so needs to approve the sale of anything. Given the administrator will have been appointed by the bank, his sales will be legit. 

Our marine mortgage (thankfully now paid off) was secured on the boat but the boat didn't have to be registered as part of the deal.

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1 hour ago, Horace42 said:

 

Wasn't that the nub of the issue when a boat-share company went bust a coupe of years ago? The time share owners who bought their shares - found they only owned the right to use the boat - but not the actual boat.

When Ownerships went bust in 2010 I had a 1/12th share in one of their boats. The only issue was that the boat owed the marina it was moored at some  money for mooring and winter maintenance. It was easily resolved.

However some marinas took a harder line and chained the boats up until the outstanding money was paid, and some boats had unsold shares which were the property of Ownerships under their "buy back" scheme. Everything eventually got resolved with most owners not losing anything other than their share of unpaid bills.

When  Challenger went bust a couple of years earlier it was more complex because the company owned 4% of each boat and some boats had more shares sold than the twelve they were supposed to have. It still got sorted out in the end though. The failure of these two companies, resulted in better governance for future shared ownership schemes.

Edited by cuthound
To add the last sentance.
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