New Batteries for a Battery Killer?

[Richard10002]

Some may know, or have deduced, that I spend 3 or 4 nights a week on board, off grid, with a Honda Eu20i genny, charging through a Sterling Pure Sine Wave inverter charger, 2500/80/12, (i.e. an 80A 12v charger).

When I got the boat in Sept 2011 it needed new batteries, so I bought cheap shop branded 110Ah from Advanced battery Supplies in Stockport for £210.

By Dec 2012 it was clear that they were dying a death and, in April 2013 i bought 3 x Varta Hobby Leisure 110Ah, on the basis that they were a bit heavier, a better brand, and had a good write up amongst caravanners and boaters.

By Dec 2014 it was clear they were dying a death so, in May 2015 I bit the bullet and bought 4 x Trojan T105s for £400, for obvious reasons.

Anyway, like MtB, I find that, despite knowing a fair amount about batteries, how they work, and how they should be charged, it is now clear that they have died a death - they seem to have a total capacity of about 150Ah as of this morning and, despite charging to 2% tail current, hours of equalising, for a couple of months, they have just got worse.

My charging regime has tended to be on board Wednesday, use for a couple of days at about 100Ah per day, charge at 15V on Friday until current is around 4Ah. Use until Sunday, then charge at 15V until current around 4Ah, then equalise once a month for 3 or 4 hours at 15.5V. The equalising has been weekly for the past couple of months.

I've got a NASA BM2 monitor, and a Smartguage, and I charge well beyond the point where the Smartguage says 100%, and generally start charging when it says 50%. Thus, despite doing everything that seems to correlate to good battery practice, I kill batteries in a bit less than 2 years.

So, by deduction, it seems that whatever batteries I buy, I get a couple of years out of them, and that's it. I'm not prepared to pay current Trojan prices, so could either try the Varta Hobby again, for about £330 for 3 x 110Ah, Numax CXV31MF for about £240 for 3 x 110Ah, or this shop brand 28.5kg 110Ah from Advanced Battery Supplies, at £225 for 3:

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/product/abs-110-ampere/

given my history, I'm tempted by the heavy unbranded job, but am leaning towards ManBats Numax Brand, (which could be a generic battery with a Numax sticker?).

I'm going to do something on Thursday, and it would be good to have some opinions to put in the decision making pot

[Alan de Enfield]

You are probably doing the best you can within your circumstances just accept that you may have to spend £2 per week on a 'disposable item'

Take the following actions :

1) get a couple of hundred watts of solar.

2) buy a set of the cheap batteries, look after them as you have previously and let the solar do the rest. (Even at this time of year you will get SOME benefit)

[mross]

18 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

My charging regime has tended to be on board Wednesday, use for a couple of days at about 100Ah per day, charge at 15V on Friday until current is around 4Ah

I think you mean 4A? 

[Richard10002]

7 minutes ago, mross said:

I think you mean 4A? 

Of course I did, but you all knew that, didnt you

That was a definite typo due to rattling it off at speed

21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You are probably doing the best you can within your circumstances just accept that you may have to spend £2 per week on a 'disposable item'

Take the following actions :

1) get a couple of hundred watts of solar.

2) buy a set of the cheap batteries, look after them as you have previously and let the solar do the rest. (Even at this time of year you will get SOME benefit)

Those are my thoughts... I've got 100W of solar, and am considering adding another 200W along with an upgrade to an MPPT controller.

[mross]

11 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

 

19 minutes ago, mross said:

I think you mean 4A? 

Of course I did, but you all knew that, didnt you

 

 

Well, you did it twice so I wasn't sure!  probably a brain fart.

[WotEver]

39 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You are probably doing the best you can within your circumstances just accept that you may have to spend £2 per week on a 'disposable item'

Take the following actions :

1) get a couple of hundred watts of solar.

2) buy a set of the cheap batteries, look after them as you have previously and let the solar do the rest. (Even at this time of year you will get SOME benefit)

Yup, I'd go along with this. Not much more you can do. 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You are probably doing the best you can within your circumstances just accept that you may have to spend £2 per week on a 'disposable item'

Take the following actions :

1) get a couple of hundred watts of solar.

2) buy a set of the cheap batteries, look after them as you have previously and let the solar do the rest. (Even at this time of year you will get SOME benefit)

 

I'm running 560W of solar and for the three months of Dec, Jan and Feb I get ZERO significant output from it. Come March though, it turns on like a light. Right now I'm getting a charge output of 4.1A at 26.5v.

My experience is its the three months of no solar that kills the batteries. Once the solar turns ON it is fine all through summer so if Richard finds the same, his battery life would probably extend to several years given he is running no solar at the moment. 

I'm concluding that my battery killing behaviour is actually having a frugal power need and allowing them the subside to 50% over about a week. My current theory is batteries need to be charged every day or every two days regardless of the DoD they have fallen to. This is about the only thing I've been doing wrong - charging them once a week (even though they never go below 50%)

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I'm running 560W of solar and for the three months of Dec, Jan and Feb I get ZERO significant output from it.

I know that we have both previously reported 'disappointing' solar output in the Winter, but I am surprised you are getting 'nothing'.

In the last 3 months I have achieved 1kw - 1.5Kw per month from a single 170 watt 'low-light' panel. (probably about 90-110Ah per month) so I would have expected you to have achieved at least 3 times that (unless the low-light' panels make such a huge difference)

[ditchcrawler]

34 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm running 560W of solar and for the three months of Dec, Jan and Feb I get ZERO significant output from it. Come March though, it turns on like a light. Right now I'm getting a charge output of 4.1A at 26.5v.

My experience is its the three months of no solar that kills the batteries. Once the solar turns ON it is fine all through summer so if Richard finds the same, his battery life would probably extend to several years given he is running no solar at the moment. 

I'm concluding that my battery killing behaviour is actually having a frugal power need and allowing them the subside to 50% over about a week. My current theory is batteries need to be charged every day or every two days regardless of the DoD they have fallen to. This is about the only thing I've been doing wrong - charging them once a week (even though they never go below 50%)

From the Trojan manual, not the bit about charging after every use :-

Proper charging is imperative to maximize battery performance. Both under- or over-charging batteries can significantly reduce the life of the battery. Most chargers are automatic and pre-programmed, while others are manual and allow the user to set the voltage and current values. AGM and gel batteries should always have temperature compensated charging. î

Batteries should be fully charged after each use. “Use” is defined as at least 30 minutes of runtime.

[mrsmelly]

Numax are good and 74 squid ish or a bit less delivered from ebay sources. I am thinking of them next. My present cheapos are now nearly 26 months old and still fine although capacity is markedly reduced they are Brit marine from Sawley marina and were 74.50 each and are now 89 each and they are good for the money. I liveaboard 24/7 365 the difference is I charge every day and have solar. Its pointless buying Trojans or big name big brands as they die just as quickly as cheapos if you dont love em to bits and read them a bedtime story and look after them.

[MtB]

21 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Numax are good and 74 squid ish or a bit less delivered from ebay sources. I am thinking of them next. My present cheapos are now nearly 26 months old and still fine although capacity is markedly reduced they are Brit marine from Sawley marina and were 74.50 each and are now 89 each and they are good for the money. I liveaboard 24/7 365 the difference is I charge every day and have solar. Its pointless buying Trojans or big name big brands as they die just as quickly as cheapos if you dont love em to bits and read them a bedtime story and look after them.

 

Just to translate, by this mrsmelly means you have to charge them every 30 minutes (according to the manual it seems, according to that nice Mr Ditchcrawler.)

[WotEver]

18 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Just to translate, by this mrsmelly means you have to charge them every 30 minutes (according to the manual it seems, according to that nice Mr Ditchcrawler.)

No, you have to charge them daily if they've been used that day. Used is defined as more than 30 minutes discharge. 

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, WotEver said:

No, you have to charge them daily if they've been used that day. Used is defined as more than 30 minutes discharge. 

 

I am having trouble reconciling this with the oft repeated forum advice that when the Smartgauge gets down to 50%, it's time to recharge.

 

[WotEver]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I am having trouble reconciling this with the oft repeated forum advice that when the Smartgauge gets down to 50%, it's time to recharge.

Why?

Nobody ever said "Don't recharge until the batteries are down to 50%". The rule us "Don't allow the batteries to go below 50%". 

You can recharge from 85% if you wish. Just try not to let those crystals grow. 

[MtB]

There seems less point than ever having a Smartgauge if the advice is to recharge every day the battery is in use, regardless.

So the new forum advice is a battery when in use must be recharged when the Smartgauge gets down to 50% or after 24 hours, whichever occurs sooner.

Yes?

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

There seems less point than ever having a Smartgauge if the advice is to recharge every day the battery is in use, regardless.

So the new forum advice is a battery when in use must be recharged when the Smartgauge gets down to 50% or after 24 hours, whichever occurs sooner.

Yes?

No. The advice,as I understand it , is and always has been that 50% on the SG is the latest you want to leave it before charging in order to prolong the life of your batteries. 

Edited March 5, 2017 by rusty69

[MtB]

19 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

No. The advice,as I understand it , is and always has been that 50% on the SG is the latest you want to leave it before charging in order to prolong the life of your batteries. 

Yes that's what I always thought too, but an hour ago it changed!! 

Did you miss this:

 

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

From the Trojan manual, not the bit about charging after every use :-

Proper charging is imperative to maximize battery performance. Both under- or over-charging batteries can significantly reduce the life of the battery. Most chargers are automatic and pre-programmed, while others are manual and allow the user to set the voltage and current values. AGM and gel batteries should always have temperature compensated charging. î

Batteries should be fully charged after each use. “Use” is defined as at least 30 minutes of runtime.

 

And this:

32 minutes ago, WotEver said:

No, you have to charge them daily if they've been used that day. Used is defined as more than 30 minutes discharge

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[Alan de Enfield]

Battery Management is a continuously evolving knowledge base and skill.

There are so many 'rules' regulations and guidance' :- just use them, charge them when you can and scrap them when they no longer last overnight.

 

You know it makes sense.

[rusty69]

13 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Yes that's what I always thought too, but an hour ago it changed!! 

Did you miss this:

 

 

And this:

 

I was under the impression that although 50% discharge is the latest you want to start charging, it is much more preferable to charge on a regular basis. This is what I do. I will charge every day, given the oppurtunity.

 

Your circumstances are probably different, so you may not have that option.

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by rusty69

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I was under the impression that although 50% discharge is the latest you want to start charging, it is much more preferable to charge on a regular basis. This is what I do. I will charge every day, given the oppurtunity.

 

Well yes, that's what I thought too. So only having the chance to recharge at weekends I thought getting a battery back big enough to last two weeks would be fine. But it wasn't. It's down to about 40% of new capacity after three months now. 

"Preferable to charge on a regular basis" simply isn't true. It's mandatory to charge every 24 hours while the battery is in use.

#

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Well yes, that's what I thought too. So only having the chance to recharge at weekends I thought getting a battery back big enough to last two weeks would be fine. But it wasn't. It's down to about 40% of new capacity after three months now. 

"Preferable to charge on a regular basis" simply isn't true. It's mandatory to charge every 24 hours while the battery is in use.

#

Its only mandatory if you want to get maximum life from your batteries

[Alan de Enfield]

If you want to minimise your recharging to 'zero' you can do (and just replace the batteries more frequently).

The old 'guidance' of "charge your batteries 3 hours every day and 8 hours on a weekend" probably holds more true than many would accept.

[ditchcrawler]

I was discussing buying second hand boats and excessive engine hours when I said I would be more worried about one with a few hours over its life. Someone posted there boat was 3 years old done 4000 hours and had been serviced 3 times as the manual said oil and filter change every 250 hour or annually, so he did it annually.

[mrsmelly]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Battery Management is a continuously evolving knowledge base and skill.

There are so many 'rules' regulations and guidance' :- just use them, charge them when you can and scrap them when they no longer last overnight.

 

You know it makes sense.

This is soooooo true. They are exactly the same as diesel when its getting low ya fill up and when batt capacity is getting low ya buy new ones. Mine are still doing evening telly, fridge all day and night and webasto for a couple of hours here and there and lasting till the next evening for charging again. When they get down to 12 volts one morning it will be bin time. Boating is an expensive way to live or an expensive hobby but still the best 

[WotEver]

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

"Preferable to charge on a regular basis" simply isn't true. It's mandatory to charge every 24 hours while the battery is in use.

Nothing to do with batteries is mandatory. All we can ever do is to refine 'best practise'.

You can use them until the lights go out before recharging if you like. Depending on the batteries they might last one cycle like that. Best to never allow them to go below 50%  

You can recharge them once a week if you like, and that will give them a better life and once the solar kicks in it might rejuvenate them to a surprising degree. 

You can recharge them daily if you like and they'll probably last longer.