batteries. Batteries constantly dying even though on trickle charge - help!

[bizzard]

First one 14.4

Ah! Yes DC, thanks, I can see the slightly different shades of single strokes now. No 9 sixth picture is showing 15.1v I think. I was going to do it all again taking the pics with my trusty Olympus Trip film camera and then photographing them with the digital camera to stick on here. The last one is 13.6v float.

Edited February 22, 2017 by bizzard

[nicknorman]

I take it then that when my boat failed its BSS because despite having a correct 'Blue Landline, socket / Plug' it did not have an RCD, had I just draped the extension lead thru' the window it would have passed ?

 

Just a couple of examples -

 

Section 3:8:1

Shore-power and battery charging inlet connections must be: • securely fitted; • free of missing components; and, • free of signs of damage or deterioration.

 

Section 3:8:2

Shore-power and battery charging leads must be fitted with a female type socket at the end which connects to the vessel’s inlet connection. Alternating current leads within the vessel used to connect individual power sources to the vessel’s alternating current distribution system must be fitted with a male type plug (or be permanently connected) at the end which connects to the power source, and a female type socket at the end which connects to the distribution system.

 

Plugging an appliance straight into the 'socket' of the extension lead would mean that there is no on-board protection, so would fail the BSS under section 3:9:2

 

Check that all a.c. electrical circuits pass through a consumer unit (also known as fuse/circuit-breaker box or distribution board).

 

I offer no retraction for suggesting that 'dangling an extension lead thru the window' would be a BSS failure.

 

Whilst I obviously have not sighted the OPs insurance policy, both of my boat policies have a similar clause :

 

It is a condition of this insurance that the Insured will take all reasonable precautions in keeping and maintaining the Craft in a proper state of repair and at all times exercise due care and diligence in both the protection, use and manning of the Craft.

 

No Claim shall be allowed in respect of:

..

..

..

...........where the loss or damage has been caused by or results from the negligence of any person whatsoever.........

 

I would suggest that the insurers would take a very dim view of any practice that warranted a BSS failure, and would be likely to refuse cover in the event of an incident caused by a lack of 'due care' to ensure the safe & correct wiring of the electrical system.

The BSS does not require you to have an RCD in your shore power system so either your examiner gave you an invalid fail, or you are confused about why it failed. The BSS specifically says that an RCD is recommended. Not mandatory.

 

I would say that equipment that happens to be on board that is not part of the boat, is not covered by the BSS. Carry-on equipment. If you had any sense you'd carry it off before the BSS man arrived!

 

3.8.1 refers to the need for a shore power inlet connector to be secure. It doesn't say that you must have a shore power inlet connector, just that if you do have one it must be secure.

 

3.8.2 refers to a lead connecting the boat's ac distribution systems to shore power. The OP isn't doing this, she just has a lead coming through the window into which she plugs the kettle etc. So this section is not applicable.

 

3.9.2 is badly written since "ac circuits must pass through a CU" seems to apply to the alternator W (tacho) connector and lots of other places where ac might be found. But even then it allows for a breaker within a shore power lead in the case of a single power source and the OP could already have this or easily add it - for all the use it would be considering there will be a breaker at the bollard already.

 

If your boat was at your moorings at which shore power was available and you needed to use a power tool on the exterior, and you found it more convenient to plug the tool into an extension from the shore bollard, and happened to drape some of the extension cable over the boat, is it your view that you have instantly invalidated your BSS and insurance? If so, you would be wrong.

 

As for your comments about the insurance, my position is that having an extension cable on the boat isn't failing to "excercise due care and diligence...etc". You haven't really thought about what the actual hazard is. If you did, you would realise that there is no failure to "exercise due care and diligence" etc.

[bizzard]

The little ZIG facia used to hold a wodgamacallit needle voltmeter and I filed and adapted it to hold the £3 digital one. Its quite accurate though, I've checked it against my old garage Crypton voltmeter and my Multimeter.

It's the flash that did it.

I thought it might be. It should impress Mrs Oyl though. And Tony Brooks.

Edited February 22, 2017 by bizzard

[Alan de Enfield]

The BSS does not require you to have an RCD in your shore power system so either your examiner gave you an invalid fail, or you are confused about why it failed. The BSS specifically says that an RCD is recommended. Not mandatory.

 

I would say that equipment that happens to be on board that is not part of the boat, is not covered by the BSS. Carry-on equipment. If you had any sense you'd carry it off before the BSS man arrived!

 

3.8.1 refers to the need for a shore power inlet connector to be secure. It doesn't say that you must have a shore power inlet connector, just that if you do have one it must be secure.

 

3.8.2 refers to a lead connecting the boat's ac distribution systems to shore power. The OP isn't doing this, she just has a lead coming through the window into which she plugs the kettle etc. So this section is not applicable.

 

3.9.2 is badly written since "ac circuits must pass through a CU" seems to apply to the alternator W (tacho) connector and lots of other places where ac might be found. But even then it allows for a breaker within a shore power lead in the case of a single power source and the OP could already have this or easily add it - for all the use it would be considering there will be a breaker at the bollard already.

 

If your boat was at your moorings at which shore power was available and you needed to use a power tool on the exterior, and you found it more convenient to plug the tool into an extension from the shore bollard, and happened to drape some of the extension cable over the boat, is it your view that you have instantly invalidated your BSS and insurance? If so, you would be wrong.

 

As for your comments about the insurance, my position is that having an extension cable on the boat isn't failing to "excercise due care and diligence...etc". You haven't really thought about what the actual hazard is. If you did, you would realise that there is no failure to "exercise due care and diligence" etc.

 

I did fail the BSS due to no RCD - I remonstrated with him and cited the exact point you made (not mandatory), but he said (words to the effect of) "you either fit one and I'll come back and give you a pass, or I give you a failure and you pay someone else to come and give you a pass, you have paid me in advance so I win either way'

I went to Screw fix, bought a £5 RCD, fitted it and he came back the next day and gave me the certificate.

 

I did put in a complaint to Rob@BSS, but of course, if any action was taken it was not publicised.

 

With regard to the other issues - we will just have to disagree, I have one interpretation and you have another.

[nicknorman]

If I had been you I would have declined to let him back onto my boat and sued him for a refund in the small claims court and/or put a formal complaint in to the BSS office. Allowing these cowboys to get away with making up their own rules simply encourages them to do it to others. Next time, can I suggest you find a less dishonourable and more competent examiner.

 

Anyway, if you knew all that why did you repeat the misinformation in order to try to make your point?

 

Oh and I wouldn't use someone for a service who required payment in advance. I've only had one BSS done but certainly didn't pay in advance.

Edited February 22, 2017 by nicknorman

[dmr]

My concern when she said modified a lead it was a plug to plug lead which in turn was plugged into a socket in the lounge. Yes I have seen it.

 

Ooooh hadn't thought of that, can see that it could be a very tempting and almost logical way to get electricity into a boat. BSS man told me he has seen something similar quite a few times where the 13amp plug from the inverter becomes live on shore power. I bet its done quite a lot when needing to provide temporary power to a house from a generator. Thick rubber soled boots and one hand in the pocket??????

 

..............Dave

[Bod]

This is the view from the entrance to the engine room. Fusebox in front, to the right (behind the panel that can be seen in the pic) is the battery and another mini fuseboard with the RCD above it (more pics to follow).

 

 

 

 

 

Quite off topic but that consumer unit ("fuseboard") is quite inappropriate for any boat.

Most normal shore line supplies are rated at 16amp (yes - you can get a 32amp setup - but these are not the norm) Both the RCBOs are rated at 63 amps and the breakers are a mix of 40 and 32 amp units.

This is a split unit for a large house NOT a narrowboat. Any qualified electrician would do a complete wobbly and probably go no further. A simple expedient might be to replace the RCBOs with a 16 amp unit. At leas that would protect some of cabling.

It's not satisfactory to say that the shore box would trip at 16amps - but I've seen units where the shore side fails and that can be expensive to repair. It's better if the boat side trips first.

 

The above arrangement is potentially dangerous as it stands.

 

 

Can you be more precise? Without specificity, I don't think your comment is helpful to the OP.

 

This domestic consumer unit appears not to give the the protection required for the installation it is being used for.

Hence my comment, " There are from your photos, cause for concern, regarding the 240v mains electrical setup, which may be a BSS failure."

Obviously without actual inspection then no-one can be sure.

As has been offered to the OP, both her boats really need an experienced person to look over, and advise.

 

Bod

[nicknorman]

This domestic consumer unit appears not to give the the protection required for the installation it is being used for.

Hence my comment, " There are from your photos, cause for concern, regarding the 240v mains electrical setup, which may be a BSS failure."

Obviously without actual inspection then no-one can be sure.

As has been offered to the OP, both her boats really need an experienced person to look over, and advise.

 

Bod

What is the required protection? Which breakers are actually in use? Maybe just one 16A one plus the RCD, which would be entirely adequate and in fact exemplary. If the picture was of a single 16A RCBO would you say the same thing on the grounds that "all the internal wiring might be 0.5mm^2 but without actual inspection then we can't be sure"? I suspect not.

 

And in any case, it certainly isn't any grounds for a BSS failure which simply requires the presence of a CU - and that is clearly present.

Edited February 22, 2017 by nicknorman

[bizzard]

Looks like two electrical expurts are needed, a DC one and an AC one, or a single AC-DC one.

[nicknorman]

Well it just irritates me when folk pipe up citing "BSS failure" and "highly dangerous, desist" type comments without actually being aware of the regulations or the risk issues. Scaremongering. Perhaps it is a means to make them feel important and superior? Or just bullying?

[bizzard]

It's the flash that did it.

Forgot to mention. I wasn't wearing a mac.

[Bod]

Well it just irritates me when folk pipe up citing "BSS failure" and "highly dangerous, desist" type comments without actually being aware of the regulations or the risk issues. Scaremongering. Perhaps it is a means to make them feel important and superior? Or just bullying?

 

If you are referring to my posts, then I respectfully ask you to point out where I made any actual claims.

The installation photographed does not, as I am sure you agree, follow normal narrowboat practise.

 

Bod

[nicknorman]

If you are referring to my posts, then I respectfully ask you to point out where I made any actual claims.

The installation photographed does not, as I am sure you agree, follow normal narrowboat practise.

 

Bod

In part, yes. But certainly not exclusively. If you went to a doctor with a cold and he looked at you and said "you may have cancer. But I'm not sure until you have a thorough examination" and in fact it turned out you just had a cold, would you think it was a good way for him to carry on?

 

You said "...may be a BSS failure" when in fact there is nothing in the photo to suggest any likelihood of a BSS failure. Yes perhaps there is a connected-up cylinder of propane just out of shot in the engine bay, but without any reasonable grounds to suspect it, to say there "may be a BSS failure" is just scaremongering.

[Arthur Brown]

As an electrical system seems to be essential to modern life, the OP's prime objective should be an understanding of the system fitted to each boat, and how it works or doesn't. Only then can the existing systems be properly used and improved -including preparation for BSS exam (the exam criteria are published so there is no room for error there).

 

Early adoption of solar power could be a good plan if the mooring(s) are sunny.

[system 4-50]

Forgot to mention. I wasn't wearing a mac.

I am not sure that that applelies in this case.

[roland elsdon]

I had a halfords 'intelligent' charger bought as no choice some 5 years ago, bought as distress purchase as halfrauds was within walking distance and the nearest boatyshop 50 miles away. sounds similar, it had 3 lights, and the only way of ascertaining it was automatic ing was watch the voltmeter rise. I used it occasionally for a few years having no landline. I plugged it in on landline this year nothing... Did normal checks nothing. They auto sense to make sure connection is right way round but this wasn't the issue and the boat batts were at 12+ volts. I came to the conclusion the China limited life function had operated gave it a bloody great kick, and cycled to braunston for a new small charger. Same thing happened the year before with the bilge pump. It's built in obsolescence and why smart stuff is cheap

[MtB]

There is a lot to be said for making your own charger from a transformer and a diode.

Anything more is overcomplicating it.

[mross]

Looks like two electrical expurts are needed, a DC one and an AC one, or a single AC-DC one.

When I was at sea, quite a lot of the electricians were AC/DC !

Edited February 23, 2017 by mross

[rusty69]

 

No... as far as we can tell from what you've told us you do not have an inverter. With a single leisure battery you don't really have enough power for one anyway, so let's forget that entirely.

 

You need a new battery (you've killed the existing one) and to keep it like new you also require a 'proper' battery charger, properly installed. Something like this would do well: http://sterling-power.com/collections/marine-battery-chargers/products/pro-charge-ultra

 

Yes, it's a lot more money, but needs must. Perhaps someone else is aware of a cheaper charger of at least 10A output?

Someone on this forum (I cant remember who) once recommended this charger:-

 

 

https://www.portablepowertech.com/product/premium-30a-12v-battery-charger/

It's worth repeating, so I shall...

 

[WotEver]

Someone on this forum (I cant remember who) once recommended this charger:-

 

 

https://www.portablepowertech.com/product/premium-30a-12v-battery-charger/

I think that would be perfect for son's boat.

[mross]

How about this if money is tight? what does the team think? £75 at Halfords or £60 online from Amazon.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ring-Automotive-RCB320-Battery-Charger/dp/B0012EI1G8

[rusty69]

Or this:-

 

https://www.mailspeedmarine.com/quick-sbc-nrg-3-stage-iuou-battery-charger-12v-25amp.html

[MtB]

Did we ever get to the bottom of why the problem has recently cropped up?

 

Without knowing why it all worked swimmingly since (presumably) the dawn of time then suddenly stopped working, buying a bigger charger is guessing at the solution using someone else's money.

[rusty69]

Did we ever get to the bottom of why the problem has recently cropped up?

 

Without knowing why it all worked swimmingly since (presumably) the dawn of time then suddenly stopped working, buying a bigger charger is guessing at the solution using someone else's money.

As far as I can tell,no. It was suggested (amongst other things)however that consumption outstripped supply, possibly due to inadequate charging.

Edited February 23, 2017 by rusty69

[WotEver]

As far as I can tell,no. It was suggested (amongst other things)however that consumption outstripped supply, possibly due to inadequate charging.

Yes, that appears to be the most likely cause. However, I have strongly suggested that Olive takes up Tony B's kind offer to check the boat out at which time we would hopefully know for sure.