Can I transit from Glasson dock to the Thames?

[steve yates]

Hi, I'm looking for advice from experienced canal users.

I actually have an 18 ft sailing boat, based in Cumbria. I have had to move to Essex and instead of trailing it, I am wondering about the feasibility of sailing her down to glass on dock, dropping the mast, maybe even leave it there and take it down by road, and then making my way down to the Thames to get to my ultimate destination near canvey island.

 

She has a six hp outboard, with separate fuel tank and spare cans, enough for around a hundred miles per hop.

 

Is is possible? Anyone done it? How long would it take? What problems might I encounter.

Is April a problem for doing this?

 

Thanks.

Steve

[MtB]

Hi, I'm looking for advice from experienced canal users.

I actually have an 18 ft sailing boat, based in Cumbria. I have had to move to Essex and instead of trailing it, I am wondering about the feasibility of sailing her down to glass on dock, dropping the mast, maybe even leave it there and take it down by road, and then making my way down to the Thames to get to my ultimate destination near canvey island.

 

She has a six hp outboard, with separate fuel tank and spare cans, enough for around a hundred miles per hop.

 

Is is possible? Anyone done it? How long would it take? What problems might I encounter.

Is April a problem for doing this?

 

Thanks.

Steve

 

 

Puzzling post. Do you mean around the coast or through the canal system?

 

If the latter I doubt a sailing boat will cope with canal water barely 3 feet deep, often much less...

 

Welcome to the forum by the way!

[zenataomm]

I'll buy the book after you've done it.

[rgreg]

 

 

Puzzling post. Do you mean around the coast or through the canal system?

 

If the latter I doubt a sailing boat will cope with canal water barely 3 feet deep, often much less...

 

Welcome to the forum by the way!

You beat me to it; I've just read the post 3 times to try and work out what he wants to do!

[David Mack]

I presume he wants to take the boat by sea to Glasson Dock then by canal to the Thames, taking the mast by road.

 

The 18 ft length will be no problem, and I guess a boat that short will not be wider than 7 ft. With the mast out airdraft should not be a problem so the only question is the depth of any fixed keel.

 

A 6hp outboard will be OK on the canals, but might be inadequate for the Ribble Link and on the Thames.

 

I would say its doable.

[steve yates]

Thanks guys, I forgot to mention she has a stub lifting keel, 1m draft when down, 40cm when raised. The outboard on the tidal Thames will be fine as I will work the tides and have the sails back from tower bridge.

But I have no idea if the canals link up to do this route, and where on the Thames I would come out, I need your advice on that. Also on timescales, is 3 weeks reasonable? Too long? Easily achievable? I will prob have to do it in stages, maybe have a week then leave her somewhere for a couple of weeks while I go back to work till I get my next week or two window. I'm self employed so that helps with the time a lot.

Also reccomendatioms for moorings with good pubs and possible showers.

Plus lock advice, I will be mainly singlehanded, are the locks possible with one person?

Thank you.

Edited February 8, 2017 by steve yates

[steve yates]

By way of introduction, I bought this boat at end of 2015 to learn to sail in, last year I singlehanded her from Cumbria to kinlochbervie and Stornaway and back as far as Stranraer, between May and November. ( got stuck at Stranraer, still waiting for a weather window to get back to Cumbria, 'tis 5 days sailing) Same kind of thing, a week or two sailing, park her and get back to work till next gap, then off again.

There are some snaps from that trip here

[howardang]

Thanks guys, I forgot to mention she has a stub lifting keel, 1m draft when down, 40cm when raised. The outboard on the tidal Thames will be fine as I will work the tides and have the sails back from tower bridge.

But I have no idea if the canals link up to do this route, and where on the Thames I would come out, I need your advice on that. Also on timescales, is 3 weeks reasonable? Too long? Easily achievable? I will prob have to do it in stages, maybe have a week then leave her somewhere for a couple of weeks while I go back to work till I get my next week or two window. I'm self employed so that helps with the time a lot.

Also reccomendatioms for moorings with good pubs and possible showers.

Plus lock advice, I will be mainly singlehanded, are the locks possible with one person?

Thank you.

Welcome to the forum. If you mean to travel all the way from Glasson Dock to the Thames, may I suggest you have a look at the canal planner (link attached).

http://canalplan.org.uk/

 

This will allow you to do your planning including suitable moorings etc and you may like to supplement it with the CRT planning guides (link here)

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/navigating-the-waterways-boating/notices-and-stoppages/planning-your-boat-trip

 

 

 

You will have to remember that petrol is much more difficult to find near to canals than diesel.

 

Good luck with your plans.

 

Howard

[steve yates]

Brilliant, thx howard

[ditchcrawler]

Brilliant, thx howard

Its the best part of 300 miles

[rgreg]

Steve, rather than sail into Glasson you could go a bit further South and join the canal system at Tarleton via the Ribble. The network from there takes you right to the Thames and four weeks would seem reasonable (as mentioned, Canal Plan is excellent for finer planning). As long as your boat is less than 7ft wide the length and draft you stated should be fine. The point about petrol is a good one; it's scarce on the canal network.

Typo edit.

Edited February 8, 2017 by rgreg

[David Mack]

As long is the boat is less than 7 ft maximum beam you should be fine.

 

Canalplan says that Glasson Dock to the Thames at Limehouse is 324 miles, 211 locks and will take 23 days at 7 hours per day, using the default settings. There are a number of possible routes you can take - the default Canalplan route takes you almost into Manchester, crossing over the Ship Canal on Barton Swing Aqueduct, then via the Trent and Mersey Canal, including Harecastle Tunnel, the Coventry and North Oxford Canals and then down the Grand Union (including two more long tunnels at Braunston and Blisworth), and along the Regents Canal to enter the Thames at Limehouse. Alternatively you could carry on down the GU to enter the Thames at Brentford, or you could continue along the Oxford Canal to join the Thames at Oxford.

 

As a seagoing boater you might instead want to take the canal to Liverpool, cross the Mersey and enter the bottom of the Ship Canal and then take the Shropshire Union Canal from Ellesmere Port, or River Weaver and use the Anderton Lift to get up to the Trent and Mersey. The Shroppie option would take you up into the heart of the midlands, and through the Black Country from Wolverhampton to Birmingham.

 

These days steel 'clonecraft' narrowboats are fairly ubiquitous, but in the early days of canal leisure boating people took to the water in a huge variety of craft - sailing boats, river cruisers, converted ships lifeboats, ex-army pontoons and a variety of self-built craft as well as ex-working narrow boats - often cut in half. There is absolutely no reason why you cannot do the same today.

 

Petrol is less convenient than diesel, but people do it. You just need a bit of planning to find nearby (road) petrol stations as there are virtually no canal boatyards which sell petrol.

 

Your boat will need to be licenced with CRT, which in turn means you will need a Boat Safety Certificate and insurance (and the BSC requirements can be more onerous for petrol-engined craft). The CRT website has all the info you need - and if in doubt ask here.

 

As a craft in transit you do not need a home mooring. If you need to break your trip you can leave the boat tied on the towpath over most of the system for up to 14 days (unless signed otherwise) for free, or you can pay to take a temporary boatyard/marina mooring.

 

Just noticed you want to do this trip in April. The route will be affected by the Bridgewater Canal closure discussed here , so you might be better waiting until that is reopened, otherwise the Liverpool option looks more attractive, or indeed sail down the west coast all the way to the Mersey.

[Graham Davis]

Steve,

Can't see anyone has asked the question, directly, so.................what is the width of your boat?

[dor]

Wouldn't an 18ft boat be cheaper, quicker and easier to put on a trailer and take by road?

[steve yates]

Dor, yes it would, but I'm intrigued by this idea, so much more interesting

Graham, she is 6 ft wide

[Peter X]

Steve,

Can't see anyone has asked the question, directly, so.................what is the width of your boat?

Steve,

In case you're wondering why Graham's question is crucial, it's because there is no inland route from north to south for any boat wider than 7 feet.

If your boat is wider than that, it can do most of the route but would have to go on a trailer somewhere to cross to the Grand Union.

This map explains it well and gives you an overview of your possible routes:

http://www.jim-shead.com/waterways/mwp.php?wpage=Inland-Waterways-of-England.htm

Depth will be no problem with your keel raised.

 

To answer your question about locks, people can and do travel single handed, and there are topics on these forums explaining the techniques. However it's a lot easier if you have crew to help, easier still if they've got experience of lock operation. I recommend that you get someone with canal experience to go along with you for at least the first day, to explain how it's done. Someone off this forum may be happy to turn up and help.

 

Assuming your width is within the 7 feet, your route south should be via the Trent & Mersey, Coventry and North Oxford to Braunston, rather than through Birmingham which involves doing more locks. From Braunston to London the shorter route (but involving a few more locks because it goes up over the Chilterns) is to go down the GU rather than via Oxford. Then if you can put your mast on at Brentford and would fit under the Thames bridges with it up, you might feel confident going down river that way; I don't know much about using sails so cannot advise about that. But mixing it with the big boats below Westminster with just an outboard for propulsion sounds worrying to me.

 

As to timing, I'm sure you can do better speeds at sea, so if you're happy to sail down to the Mersey that should save time. As the spring goes on you'll have the extra daylight to make better progress on the canals; I've done 12 hours or more some days. So I think that with crew you could get from the Mersey to London in three weeks fairly comfortably; if single handed you should allow four weeks.

[Scholar Gypsy]

A fun voyage. Just to add that entering the canal system via the Mersey is not straightforward, as it requires using the Manchester Ship Canal who have some pretty onerous inspection and other requirements.

 

You could go over the pennines to Leeds, then up the Trent, down to Boston and across the Wash to Peterborough, Northampton and London. Would give you a bit of east coast sailing ....

 

Here's a photo of Canvey Island, from a trip last year

 

[magpie patrick]

About forty years ago (I guess) someone did more or less tthis from Chester to London, They came in via the Dee Branch. The journey is covered in Waterways World, someone with access to back copies may be able to find it.

 

And therein hangs a tale, you now can't get in via the Dee Branch! I suspect as well that the canals are all slightly shallower than they were then, However, it's worth a try and I wish you well, In my view the more diverse the use of cour canals the brighter their future

 

Scholar Gypsy's suggestion that, if your boat is more than 7 feet beam, you cross the peninnes and then join the Wash at Boston is a good one,

[Scholar Gypsy]

Steve says the boat is 6 feet wide, which is good as the Northampton Arm has narrow locks and the Bedford to Milton Keynes link is not yet open.

[Arthur Brown]

The really big issue will be getting your boat BSS certified for a petrol engine -may cost real money. The second issue will be getting petrol on the cut. After that sailing down the Tames should be easy. I did hear once that Thames transits must be under power (not sail) can anyone confirm. Good luck, write the book!

 

Added;

 

If you really like sailing then try the canal across the Pennines and then down the east coast.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Arthur Brown

[Alan de Enfield]

 

She has a six hp outboard, with separate fuel tank and spare cans, enough for around a hundred miles per hop.

 

 

 

Just as an aside, you are only allowed to carry a maximum of 30 litres of petrol in cans. Although petrol is 'not dangerous at sea' it is elsewhere and amounts are limited by law.

This is part of the issue with petrol powered canal craft - no petrol available canal side and you will be walking to the nearest town / village most every day to get re-supplied from a petrol station.

The other factor, (as mentioned) is that to use the Inland waterways, you will need a licence, to obtain the licence you need to have a BSSC (Boats Safety Scheme Certificate), the certificate requirements for petrol engine boats are quite strict. The cost of the BSSC will be around the same price as getting the boat trailered to the Thames..

 

I know the actual journey is part of the fun (we bought a cat in Croatia last year, we could have had her shipped back at a cost of £30,000 but decided to take a month and sail her back. - great trip.

[rgreg]

The really big issue will be getting your boat BSS certified for a petrol engine -may cost real money. The second issue will be getting petrol on the cut. After that sailing down the Tames should be easy. I did hear once that Thames transits must be under power (not sail) can anyone confirm. Good luck, write the book!

 

Added;

 

If you really like sailing then try the canal across the Pennines and then down the east coast.

He has an outboard petrol motor so why would that be an issue with BSS? These are common on many cabin cruisers on the system.

[Alan de Enfield]

He has an outboard petrol motor so why would that be an issue with BSS? These are common on many cabin cruisers on the system.

 

There are a number of issues that apply in the BSS for petrol engine boats - just one example I can immediately think of - Gas fridge (with pilot light, open to the cabin) Not allowed.

There are also a number of specific checks on the quality, condition, and approval markings on both petrol cans and fuel lines.

 

Edit to add (now I have found it)

 

5.2.2 Non-compliant LPG fridges on petrol engine boats

Non room-sealed dual (electric/LPG) fuelled refrigerators installed in boats with petrol propulsion engines may not be provided with any LPG supply pipework unless the burner, combustion air and exhaust arrangements comply with the BSS requirements.

 

In the event that a non-compliant LPG dual-fuel refrigerator is retained by the owner for use solely with electric or as storage, examinations may only be completed when any fridge LPG supply pipework and/or hose is removed at least to the branch 'T' joint with the supply line. The T-joint should ideally be replaced with an in-line or elbow joint or the pipe replaced with a continuous length. The use of a stop-end to a short length of supported spur pipe is acceptable.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[magpie patrick]

 

Just as an aside, you are only allowed to carry a maximum of 30 litres of petrol in cans. Although petrol is 'not dangerous at sea' it is elsewhere and amounts are limited by law.

This is part of the issue with petrol powered canal craft - no petrol available canal side and you will be walking to the nearest town / village most every day to get re-supplied from a petrol station.

The other factor, (as mentioned) is that to use the Inland waterways, you will need a licence, to obtain the licence you need to have a BSSC (Boats Safety Scheme Certificate), the certificate requirements for petrol engine boats are quite strict. The cost of the BSSC will be around the same price as getting the boat trailered to the Thames..

 

I know the actual journey is part of the fun (we bought a cat in Croatia last year, we could have had her shipped back at a cost of £30,000 but decided to take a month and sail her back. - great trip.

 

I agree with what you are saying in principle but I think you may be overstating how awkward petrol is, assuming you have a low power outboard and not some super duper V6 inboard jobby

 

Juno has a 10hp Yamaha and a twenty litre tank, I have two 5 litre cans. It's a while since she's been far but I seem to recall walking for petrol every few days, especially as sometimes you luck out on a canalside filling station (e.g. Top of Devizes) and can fill everything you've got, 30 litres would get me a long way, probably to the next super-convenient filling station

 

That said, a boat designed without thought to the BSS could be a problem to get through it.

[magictime]

He has an outboard petrol motor so why would that be an issue with BSS? These are common on many cabin cruisers on the system.

 

I was wondering the same thing. There are loads of petrol-outboard boats on the canals, including our old 24ft steel narrowboat.

 

Yes, you'll need to walk to a petrol station every day or two and fill up a couple of 5 litre cans. But really, although this can be a bit of a hassle, it's not such a hassle that canal boating becomes somehow 'not worth it'! In my experience, much of the time you can simply buy petrol at a nearby supermarket while you're there anyway picking up other supplies.

 

You mention showers: I don't know about further south, but in most of cruising up north we've been able to count on reaching a CRT shower facility roughly every 1-2 days when cruising.

 

As for locks: plenty of people do locks single-handed, but depending on how busy your chosen route is at the time you do it, you might find you're able to share locks with another boat much of the time anyway. In an 18ft boat you could even share narrow locks most of the time, I'd have thought, by just going in front of or behind another boat (rather than side-by-side as in a wide lock).