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BMF-Breach of contract


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Hi Phil I`m sure your refering to my reply? My sincere appologies to Charles, it certainly wasn`t meant to be like that, its just type, Sorry, I just feel for these people that have lost money.

 

Re` the Westwood saga, can you please tell us the other side of the story, and why they were so wrong to complain? and re` it being for sale, Maybe it`s been in for repair? Or it may be something to do with their court case if there is going to be a court case, You probably know more than any of us on that score. After all it`s been a while now.

Have you ever heard of your "obligation to mitigate your Loss"? This would be helpful to the defendant in any litigation case, as it could save them money, so it shouldnt be seen as anything malicious if the boat is for sale without being repaired anyway, and the higher the price obtained the less the defendant will have to pay. If this is the case and WE DO NOT KNOW, Do you?

 

Anyway please forgive me if this comes across yet again as combative it`s just an oppinion and not meant to be :)

No worries. As to the Westwood saga - I really don`t want to go over old ground. Please let it suffice if I say that I had many conversations with Barry the boat builder and he feels extremely aggrieved at the way the whole affair was reported on the net. His description of the way things were handled , the nature of the actual faults and indeed the cause of some of the most significant ones differed fundamentally from the way they were described by the customer. I also had dialogue , unreported here, with the boat owner. It matters not one jot in this context wether one was lying and the other not or wether both were telling the truth seen from different perspectives - the point now is that there were most certainly two sides to the story. I didn`t say "they were wrong to complain". I did say that we as a group were in no position to judge and , that being the case, we should not utterly condemn someone whose livelyhood could be endangered by such a mass of bad publicity.

As to wether or not the boat is now for sale and credited to another builder ( presumably because the actual builder`s reputation has been badly damaged which could well inhibit the sale of the boat ) I will try to find out the truth of it. It is correct I`ll tell you where to find the advert.If it isn`t I will tell you that as well.

Cheers

Phil

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No worries. As to the Westwood saga - I really don`t want to go over old ground. Please let it suffice if I say that I had many conversations with Barry the boat builder and he feels extremely aggrieved at the way the whole affair was reported on the net. His description of the way things were handled , the nature of the actual faults and indeed the cause of some of the most significant ones differed fundamentally from the way they were described by the customer. I also had dialogue , unreported here, with the boat owner. It matters not one jot in this context wether one was lying and the other not or wether both were telling the truth seen from different perspectives - the point now is that there were most certainly two sides to the story. I didn`t say "they were wrong to complain". I did say that we as a group were in no position to judge and , that being the case, we should not utterly condemn someone whose livelyhood could be endangered by such a mass of bad publicity.

As to wether or not the boat is now for sale and credited to another builder ( presumably because the actual builder`s reputation has been badly damaged which could well inhibit the sale of the boat ) I will try to find out the truth of it. If it is correct I`ll tell you where to find the advert.If it isn`t I will tell you that as well.

Cheers

Phil

Ok.I pass this on for your interest only and without prejudice. Westwood is for sale - I have found two ads. - one on Apollo Duck and one on Boats and Outboards . In both cases described as a Mike Christian Josher. I can also confirm that the boat has at no point been returned to the builder for any form of remedial work. Any other information I may have could be prejudicial one way or another and I ain`t getting into all that again - there could be no end of explanations for the current situation and only those involved actually know the truth of it - we are, none of us, in a position to make judgements but it underlines the point that a few of us have made , and it`s the only point I`m concerned with within the context of this topic - there is always more than one side to a story.

Cheers

Phil

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Firstly, I should say that I know absolutely nothing about the "Westwood Saga" but from what I have seen I gather that all has not gone well with this build?

 

I've looked on Apollo Duck and seen the ad for this boat. On the surface it looks quite an attractive proposition... just a minor detail... I don't want to be paying £72950.

 

However, the worrying thing is that to rank novice all might appear well but maybe all is not well???

To the points... would/should a survey pick up on any of the suggested issues?

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What always amazes me and this isn't in respect to these boats is how simple it is to rip off boaters!

 

There is something about them that makes them a danger to themselves where money is involved, if boats weren't involved these same people would probably not do the same daft things they do for example buying a house.

 

I see a lot of boats, boaters and know a lot of the tricks.

 

Unfortunately another thing I see is a lot of boaters who aren't even aware of the fact they have been ripped off!

 

I am really sticking my neck out here but with the state of the ditch crawler building market at the moment money spent on securing the services of a good surveyor would now be my recommendation.

 

A good surveyor knows what they're looking at, they see deeper than a nice shiny coat of paint that often is perceived to be proof of quality in the average boat buyers eyes.

 

They can monitor the build and catch out the builder using the common scams. (I know of builders who can work miracles by turning one engine into 3 or more! :) )

 

They can also tell you when to pay and when not to. (This is great leaver for resolving even small disputes!)

 

They also have an ear to the ground for those builders that might go pop before your boat is complete! (Listen or weep!)

 

Finally let them recommend whether or not to accept delivery of the boat.

 

Anyway that's my recommendation for what it's worth.

Edited by Gary Peacock
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Thanks for that Phill.

 

So the boat is for sale, But, there may be a hundred and one reasons why though, maybe it`s actually been fixed elsewhere?

You mentioned another builder, maybe it has been refitted by these?

Red herring? Maybe its simply that the original builder applied for info and got a load of B--ll S--t as the owner knew it was him?

Maybe as I said before, it could all part of the claim against the builder to help them get a better deal off a judge? If they can prove they have bent over backwards to settle it fairly, it would certainly go in their favour, and they could be awarded even more costs. (Do a google)

Maybe they came to an amicable agreement in their dispute and its all sorted, if they didn`t, after all this time, what does this tell you about it`s original builder though?

 

Your right theres always two sides to every story, but I think dealing with cases like this people use professionals and they will not make up stories, or at least I wouldnt think they would, so there must be more to this than your friendly boatbuilder is telling you, friendly and nice doesnt make them honest, I doubt he would say yes I did it bad if he had. I just think he should have made his customer happy at the end of the day if the customer doesnt go away happy, he`s not going to be recomended and it`s only the builder that will suffer, and in my opinion so he should.

I think any tradesman in this posistion is a fool to let the customer slip out of his reach and its their own stupid fault.

 

I definately think we should stop all this speculation (and thats all it is) as it is doing no one anygood, it`s keeping it in the fore front of everyones minds, the builder wont sell boats and the poor chap whos trying to sell it for whatever reason will never sell it.

 

I do know the owner of the boat is on this forum and I havent seen him around for some time, There may be a reason?

I`m sure we will all be informed how things have progressed in the future unless he has just had enough of us all sticking our noses into his business, as I remember it was not he who bought it to our attention in the first place.

 

Just to bring it back on topic did they have this contract I wonder?

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Hi All

 

Just an update on my situation. I have had further discussions with the owner of my chosen boatbuilding company today.

 

This conversation was over the telephone and lasted 25 minutes or so. Over that time, I did get the builders side of events and although it was obvious he was was always going to defend his corner, I must admit that having had the coversation and now hearing his version of things, I am no longer 100% sure I will be cancelling my order with his company for my boat.

 

We have agreed that I should go along for a face to face chat next week.

 

I do hope that things are able to be resolved and that after waiting so long for my narrowboat, a light can now be seen at the end of the tunnel.

 

One thing I will take on board should the build go ahead is employing the services of a surveyor. This was something I had originally planned to do.................until I had some really, what I considered to be, expensive quotes. However I do think this will be money well spent now for the peace of mind. Does anyone know or can recommend a good surveyor who covers Stourport area???

 

Will keep you posted on developments.

 

Regards,

 

Pav

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Hi All

 

Just an update on my situation. I have had further discussions with the owner of my chosen boatbuilding company today.

 

This conversation was over the telephone and lasted 25 minutes or so. Over that time, I did get the builders side of events and although it was obvious he was was always going to defend his corner, I must admit that having had the coversation and now hearing his version of things, I am no longer 100% sure I will be cancelling my order with his company for my boat.

 

We have agreed that I should go along for a face to face chat next week.

 

I do hope that things are able to be resolved and that after waiting so long for my narrowboat, a light can now be seen at the end of the tunnel.

 

One thing I will take on board should the build go ahead is employing the services of a surveyor. This was something I had originally planned to do.................until I had some really, what I considered to be, expensive quotes. However I do think this will be money well spent now for the peace of mind. Does anyone know or can recommend a good surveyor who covers Stourport area???

 

Will keep you posted on developments.

 

Regards,

 

Pav

 

Pav

 

Since you are worried about a possible problem with your builder I recommend you use a surveyor but I would say that dozens of builders produce hundreds of boats each year without their customers needing a surveyor and presumably the customers are happy with what they got. Horror stories are rare.

 

Good luck

 

Charles

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Try Narrowcraft at Alvecote 10% deposit balance when ready for delivery

If you don't like the boat when it arrives they will build you another one.

Mr & Mrs Bird and Mr & Mrs Horton will vouch for this.

Lead time is only 3 months

Its the future of bespoke boatbuilding.

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Hi All

 

Just an update on my situation. I have had further discussions with the owner of my chosen boatbuilding company today.

 

This conversation was over the telephone and lasted 25 minutes or so. Over that time, I did get the builders side of events and although it was obvious he was was always going to defend his corner, I must admit that having had the coversation and now hearing his version of things, I am no longer 100% sure I will be cancelling my order with his company for my boat.

 

We have agreed that I should go along for a face to face chat next week.

 

I do hope that things are able to be resolved and that after waiting so long for my narrowboat, a light can now be seen at the end of the tunnel.

 

One thing I will take on board should the build go ahead is employing the services of a surveyor. This was something I had originally planned to do.................until I had some really, what I considered to be, expensive quotes. However I do think this will be money well spent now for the peace of mind. Does anyone know or can recommend a good surveyor who covers Stourport area???

 

Will keep you posted on developments.

 

Regards,

 

Pav

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Oops sorry, still getting the hang of this.

 

Pav

 

I do hope things work out as you have decided to stick with your builder, I do sympathise with the difficulties you have had. I am also selling my house to live on a boat and have been finding the process a real minefield.

 

I placed an order with a company based in Stourport-on-Severn who were exibiting at the NEC in February. I went to have a look at their yard and placed an order with a £500 deposit to (I thought) secure the build slot. About two weeks later the builder asked for £28,000 first stage payment to be paid immediately, a year before any work would be started. I was suspicious and contacted Consumer Direct. They advised that he was in breach of contract as he had asked for more money after the original contract had been struck. (No mention of the £28k payment had been made at the time I paid for the build slot and I had assumed the first tranche would be payable when the work had commenced on MY boat some 12 months on). I can only assume that due to cash flow problems the builder was looking to me to finance existing builds. At some stage if the deposits dry up the builder has a problem and so do any customers with money deposited with the company. I decided to ask for my £500 to be returned. He initially said no but when I said I would go to the credit card company with my complaint he reversed the transaction immediately. Consumer Direct advised me that as I had made the initial payment with a credit card, had I paid any more money over, the credit card has to refund that amount too, up to a maximum of £25k. As you started the original transaction with a credit card, if you decide to ask for your money to be refunded then you should be covered in the same way.

 

We were surprised to see him at Crick as he was not on the list of exibitors. When talking to another builder at Crick he said he was owed money for materials paid to this boat company totalling £7k. Wouldn't be surprised if this builder goes soon, don't want to worry you unduly but I would keep a very close eye on what he is doing.

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You know Crick always makes me cringe!

 

The magazines and websites etc all rave about and advice potential new build buyers to get to crick and get your deposit down.

 

But among the boat builders behind the smiles you often get some strong feelings of desperation and this is the final fling attitude!

 

I think crick is probably good to go look at what is out there.

But nothing more than a feeding frenzy for the builders who want your money and signature at the event. I would think quite a few people after a visit to the beer tent have later handed over a deposit that they would normally have given much more consideration to first.

 

From a builders point of view whether or not to go to a show is always a bit of a debate. In a declining market we are now geared up to produce half the number of boats we did six years ago. We now only build around seven a year, I know this makes it sound like we,re struggling but this was actually a conscious decision to slim down the company reduce overheads and generally try and streamline the setup along with increasing profits.

A number of competitors took the opposite approach and expanded to hopefully increase production and profits.

Quite a few of them are now no more while others are struggling to find enough orders to keep operating.

 

So here you have the situation where to fill the order book for us involves selling only seven boats a year and we don't like more than a years orders on fixed price contracts. (Without anyone knows a good crystal ball salesman!)

So there isn't really much point in the expense of us going.

 

While to those with no orders it can be the solution needed.

 

And those geared towards lots of builds in a year they probably have no option but to attend.

 

You also have another category the brand new or phoenix company with no orders who can offer very short lead times. These are probably the winners at Crick they fill their order books quickly and then go away to see if the business is viable.

 

Strange old game boat building.

 

We are going to the IWA though!

 

But don't be looking for a boat though, just 3 paste tables, a gazebo and a very large pile of CD's! :cheers:

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