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Liverpool boats Mains power 4 way switch


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Hi,

we are the new owners of a 2007 Liverpool boats 60', she has a 4 way mains selector switch with positions 0,1,2,3.

the boat has dometic travel power installed, a Mastervolt MASS combi charger/inverter and landline socket.

 

i'm wondering if anyone has a similar install? the selector switch has no explanation to what settings do what, setting '1' appears to be landline and i'd like to confirm the other settings?

 

Thanks all

Mark

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It's a fairly standard switch (used in all sorts of applications - not only boats)

I'd guess '0' is off - that would be a good way to disconnect everything,

'1' - you've discovered, try the others with TP and MV running.

It would have been nice it the installer had put some neon lamps by the other two to show which were actually running - too much to expect, mebe?

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Thanks all!

I expected i'd end up tracing the cables but thought it was worth a quick post to ask in case Liverpool Boats wired them in a standard.

Job for next time i'm on board :-)

 

Also it was mentioned to me that there should be a way of switching so while the travel power was active the MasterVolt MASS combi would charge the domestic bank at its higher managed rate using its multi stage charger facility but when I've tried I could not get the charger section to activate, it would only activate when on landline.

 

Thanks

Mark

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Thanks all!

I expected i'd end up tracing the cables but thought it was worth a quick post to ask in case Liverpool Boats wired them in a standard.

Job for next time i'm on board :-)

 

Also it was mentioned to me that there should be a way of switching so while the travel power was active the MasterVolt MASS combi would charge the domestic bank at its higher managed rate using its multi stage charger facility but when I've tried I could not get the charger section to activate, it would only activate when on landline.

 

Thanks

Mark

The way it SHOULD be wired is that the switch selects the input to the Combi, so you would only have a position for the Travelpower, one for the shore socket and possibly, if there is another shore socket at the other end of the boat, a third position for that other shore socket.

 

However if it was all wired up by an idiot, you might find that the switch selects between shore socket(s), travel power and inverter. Thus you would be unable to use the Travelpower to charge the batteries. This is not particularly important until the domestic alternator fails, then it suddenly becomes very useful! It would probably not be that difficult to change the wiring if necessary.

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Feed the boat from one supply, plug in a table lamp and see which setting lights the lamp and label it :|| til you've identified three.

 

Beware earthing!

Mains arrives with you with earth referenced to neutral

Travel power is IIRC earth referenced to the centre tap of the voltage -which is totally non compliant

Inverter may or not be earth referenced

 

The British safety system with single switched live and an RCD really needs earth referenced neutral, you may be able to reference the inverter, but you can't do the TP.

 

One earth reference and all is fine, No earth reference and the RCDs may not work, two earth references and the RCD on the boat or bollard will nuisance trip.

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Feed the boat from one supply, plug in a table lamp and see which setting lights the lamp and label it :|| til you've identified three.

 

Beware earthing!

Mains arrives with you with earth referenced to neutral

Travel power is IIRC earth referenced to the centre tap of the voltage -which is totally non compliant

Inverter may or not be earth referenced

 

The British safety system with single switched live and an RCD really needs earth referenced neutral, you may be able to reference the inverter, but you can't do the TP.

 

One earth reference and all is fine, No earth reference and the RCDs may not work, two earth references and the RCD on the boat or bollard will nuisance trip.

What a lot of mis-information. You say "totally non compliant". Non-compliant with what? Your personal preferences?

 

What is "the British safety system"? RCDs don't need an earth referenced neutral, a centre tapped earth works just as well with the caveat that the breaker should be double pole (most are).

 

The Combi has automatic NE bonding when in inverter mode, presuming this is set on the DIP switches.

 

The OP has asked a question about the switch. You have answered with fantasy scaremongering. Not helpful.

Edited by nicknorman
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Thanks nicknorman for confirming, I thought it would make sense for the TP to power the charger.

 

Thanks Arthur for pointing out the earth referencing principles which I do understand - I'm an electronics engineer so don't worry I wont fry myself in investigating the wiring :-)

although I do take on board your concern, such as -- how often have you seen a moored boat powered by a portable genny bonded to a nice big earth rod jammed into the towpath.........

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... how often have you seen a moored boat powered by a portable genny bonded to a nice big earth rod jammed into the towpath.........

If you are moored next to armco barriers, just earth clamp to that, or use mole grips on the connection to the barrier.

 

You could always earth clamp to your 2' steel mooring pin, must be better than nothing.

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Thanks nicknorman for confirming, I thought it would make sense for the TP to power the charger.

 

Thanks Arthur for pointing out the earth referencing principles which I do understand - I'm an electronics engineer so don't worry I wont fry myself in investigating the wiring :-)

although I do take on board your concern, such as -- how often have you seen a moored boat powered by a portable genny bonded to a nice big earth rod jammed into the towpath.........

Just out of interest we have the same equipment list, but no manual switch. The TravelPower and shore power feed into an automatic changeover switch (Mastervolt Masterswitch) which when relaxed sends shore power to the Combi input. If it detects voltage on the Travelpower input it automatically (after a short delay for stabilisation and anti-chatter) switches to that source. The Combi will of course route incoming TP or shore power direct it to its output, or in the absence of any incoming power, automatically switch to inverting mode. So the whole thing works seamlessly, automatically selecting the appropriate source of mains power without any manual intervention. If you are going to rewire the switch anyway, it's an alternative way of doing it to think about. Edited by nicknorman
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Just a further thought, when the Combi detects mains input from shore power or TP, it doesn't switch to using it instantly, there is a short delay (couple of seconds?) whilst it thinks about it and incoming power light flashes, before it finally switches. (I think the inverter might phase match the incoming power before switching, something it certainly does the other way round). Therefore run the Travelpower and try the switch in the various positions, but leave it in each position for a good few seconds to see if the Combi switches over.

Edited by nicknorman
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Thanks again nicknorman, I think your spot on with the delay you mention, I originally asked the question because when I tried the switch in each position, position 1 was the only one I could get to operate but I switched positions quite quickly.

I'll give it a try again when I'm next on board and wait in each position this time.

 

many thanks!

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  • 3 months later...

Ok I'm pretty certain my TP and Combi are not wired up to take advantage of running the combi charger while on Travel power as @Nicknorman suggests an if you can further advise me that would be great?.....

I'm assuming ideally the on board 240v system (consumer unit) should be directly wired to the combi AC output as the combi will decide which supply to route to the output (i.e the AC input or the inverter or a combination of the two for power-sharing)?

The shoreline socket can be routed through the selector switch (position 1) and the travel power can be connected to the selector switch (position 2) with the output of the selector switch going to the input of the Mass Combi?

i'm assuming:

1) when on shoreline (selector Sw pos 1)  the mass combi will supply 240vAC to the boat sockets via the AC Input (shoreline) and put its self in charger mode charging the batteries?

2) when on Travelpower (selector Sw Pos2) the mass combi will supply 240vAC to the boat sockets via the (AC Input) Travel Power and put its self in charger mode charging the batteries as above?

3) When no AC input is present (travel power off and no shoreline) the mass combi will supply 240vAC to the boat sockets via the Inverter and put its self in inverter mode not charging the batteries?

if I have this correct currently, at the moment the selector switch is wired as follows: position 1 is connected to the Mass combi AC output and Selector sw Pos 2 is connected to the Travel power output and the Selector Sw output appears to be connected to the input to the 240V consumer unit meaning I will have to re wire the shoreline feed from the combi AC input to the Selector Sw Pos 1 and  re wire the Switch output to the Mass Combi AC input then connect the input to the boats consumer unit directly to the Mass Combi AC output to achieve my goal, does that sound correct?

If Nicknorman or anyone and provide a wiring diagram of how it should be that would be Great? :-)

I'm assuming that when cruising with Travelpower on the output of the alternator to the house batteries wont upset the Mass Combi charger??

Many Thanks

 

 

Edited by TechcareUK
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Yes, the wiring is simple although it may require a fair bit of work from you to achieve it. 

Assuming you're keeping your manual switch then the shore power socket should be wired to input 1. Travel power output should be wired to input 2. Output of the switch goes to the Mass Combi. Output of the Mass Combi goes to the consumer unit. 

I seem to recall there's something in the RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) regs about an RCD (Resudual Current Device) within half a metre of the shorepower input but I'm pretty sure there's no such requirement in the BSS. It would complicate matters somewhat. 

Edited by WotEver
Clarity
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HI Techcare,

  Depending on how the Combi Charger is set up, you may find that the Combi & the Alternator try to fight each other.

What could happen is that the Combi senses the Alternator input as an over voltage & then tries to shut down

This happens on my system & I have to 'tweak' the Alternator Controller Output Voltage to try to get a balance.

Tony

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40 minutes ago, Tony Fuller said:

What could happen is that the Combi senses the Alternator input as an over voltage & then tries to shut down

That can only happen in Absorption, in which case it's unlikely to make much difference to overall charge time. 

Having said that, Techcare, if you do have a separate alternator controller (you don't say that you do have, but you might) then i think it would be good practice to set the maximum voltage at about the same as the Combi's Absorption voltage. 

Edited by WotEver
Typo
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Hi Guys,

no the sterling alt controller had to be removed because of water damage, hense the reason I'm keen to have the combi manage the battery charging, 

so to recap although the alternator may force the combi charger to shut down it should only happen in absorption mode and will not damage the combi which is my biggest concern?

 

cheers

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7 hours ago, TechcareUK said:

so to recap although the alternator may force the combi charger to shut down it should only happen in absorption mode and will not damage the combi which is my biggest concern?

That is correct. :)

Without one of those battery boilers alternator controllers the Combi probably won't shut down anyhow. 

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Hi Techcare

What happens in my system is that the Combi senses the Alternator voltage as an 'over voltage' & then shuts down the Combi.

After a few seconds the Combi re-energises itself  & the sequence starts again.(about every 30 seconds)

When this happens I adjust the Alternator Controller output voltage to balance the system so that complete charging can take place.

My system is quite old now, a Heart Interface 2500 Combi Inverter/Charger (with useful 130amp charge rate), also a Heart Interface Alternator Controller.

The Heart unit uses big heavy transformers & has been extremely reliable (although not so efficient as the modern electrical systems)

Tony

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