Battery type? Help please

[cereal tiller]

 

My kind of engineering

 

Also, the reason I'm not a fan of alternator controllers - one more black box to go wrong.

 

Tony

Should an Alternator Controller fail the standard Alternator Regulator will resume standard control ,so not a Breakdown

[dmr]

 

My kind of engineering

 

Also, the reason I'm not a fan of alternator controllers - one more black box to go wrong.

 

Tony

 

After ten years of hard use the Adverc and the Whale Gulper are about the only things that have been 100% reliable. (I fear I am going to regret saying this). The PRM260 comes close but after 15000 hours its got a very slight oil leak.

 

An Adverc failure will usually result in the alternators own regulator simply taking over, and the Adverc has a basic diagnosis light too. However if my suspicions about the advantage of the Adverc Cycle are correct these are only available if the regulated voltage of the alternator is suitably low, otherwise its best to disable the internal regulator.

 

..................Dave

[WotEver]

Should an Alternator Controller fail the standard Alternator Regulator will resume standard control ,so not a Breakdown

 

That's fair enough for those that do

[nicknorman]

After ten years of hard use the Adverc and the Whale Gulper are about the only things that have been 100% reliable. (I fear I am going to regret saying this). The PRM260 comes close but after 15000 hours its got a very slight oil leak.

 

An Adverc failure will usually result in the alternators own regulator simply taking over, and the Adverc has a basic diagnosis light too. However if my suspicions about the advantage of the Adverc Cycle are correct these are only available if the regulated voltage of the alternator is suitably low, otherwise its best to disable the internal regulator.

 

..................Dave

So your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to time a full charge from a nominated lowish SoC to full charged (let's say tail current 1%) using your adverc-boosted alternator, and then again using your alternator sans Adverc.

[dmr]

So your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to time a full charge from a nominated lowish SoC to full charged (let's say tail current 1%) using your adverc-boosted alternator, and then again using your alternator sans Adverc.

 

I will think seriously about this. Its actually not quite as simple as you make it sound. Because I have so many lovely Trojans we don't get much below 80% state of charge most days and I suspect the Smartgage is not at its most accurate here. I could go two days without an engine run but that means going to bed in a very cold back cabin. I would also need to do the two runs at roughly similar temperatures. And I usually join the starter alternator during the bulk phase though this only contributes about 15 amps so I could dispense with that , and during bulk the actual charging current will depend upon the domestic current draw. I think I would need a data logger to do this properly.

Even worse, if some of the ideas about about the higher charge voltage are correct it might be the case that a single non Adverc charge might not be too bad, but after a few the Sulphation would begin so the Adverc advantage might actual be a slightly longer term thing.

 

Anyway this will have to wait a couple of weeks, we are putting the boat into a marina for a week to go on a little holiday and before then there's a bit of cruising to be done and obviously your test requires non moving battery charging.

 

I hardly ever get anywhere near to 1% tail current in the winter, might get to 2.5%.

 

and another thing the tail currents would have to be equal at the same charging voltage... but that should be ok as I think the "lower" Adverc voltage is similar to the alternators own voltage.

 

And yet another thing the soft regulator curve might also be a major factor and is this experiment not aimed at quantifying the effect of charge voltage rather than alternator regulator characteristic?.

 

Now...if you are doing the BCN challenge we could meet up and I could give you a couple of old Trojans and you could do some real scientific experiments with your clever charger.

 

.............Dave

.

[dmr]

 

 

Email me a photo of each side of the board and I'll have a bash!!

 

Yes I got the impression it was a tiny outfit from their website. Could only find some salesy blurb about their alternator controller though, not any proper technical description of what it does. Maybe I didn't look properly,

 

Anyway I'm off to Kingston on Thames now to fix an electric boiler for an electrician, who surprisingly can't do it himself despite a fair bit of coaching on the phone. He's given up and just wants the damned thing working, NOW!

 

I've just had a look inside my spare Adverc and there are an awful lot of bits inside it, I had forgotten just how many. I suspect that most of the chips (which have had their numbers removed) are logic to generate the timing cycle but even so there an awful lot of resistors and transistors etc. I will have another go at talking to Adverc to see if they will disclose any hints about switching off the cycling, but I am not optimistic.

 

................Dave

[dmr]

So your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to time a full charge from a nominated lowish SoC to full charged (let's say tail current 1%) using your adverc-boosted alternator, and then again using your alternator sans Adverc.

 

I have thought some more about this and got quite positive for a moment but its all gone wrong.

Initially I realised that with just a wee bit of soldering I would be able to data log the whole charge cycle (amps, volts and engine speed). I then realised (or rather a measurement jogged my memory) that I have too much resistance in my charging cables/connections and rely on the Adverc to compensate for this. But the real blow is that my Iskra alternator only charges at about 14 volts and so a non Adverc assisted charge would not be very meaningful.

This has clarified my thinking a little. Because the Adverc cycles one could say that I am sort of charging at your suggested 14.4v (from the Adverc) with periodic "tickles" at 14.8 volts. I suspect that either by luck or judgement Adverc have hit on a quite a good charging strategy. Its not perfect but as their box contains no processor and does not measure current its probably about as good as it can get. The Adverc cycle is 15 mins at the higher voltage and 5 mins at the lower voltage, (maybe this would be better the other way about???l) and then a "rest" at the lower voltage.

On the other hand the Sterling device will (I assume) just charge at 14.8 volts till it goes into float. Maybe this is why it's sometimes called a battery boiler

 

...............Dave

[MtB]

I thought a battery boiler was the Acorn thing from back in the 80s...

[MtB]

I think the chances of raising and lowering the voltage being beneficial are quite low. It would be a massive coincidence if it was, given the relative ease with which it can be done.

 

It is reminding me of the electronic 'scale reducers' we have in the plumbing world. 'Radio waves' from wires wrapped around pipes apparently stop water scale from forming. Who'da thunk it!

 

The odd thing is, I change scaled up heat exchangers regularly for peeps who have these devices fitted. I often wonder why...

[dmr]

I thought a battery boiler was the Acorn thing from back in the 80s...

 

Some people use it as a derogatory term for any alternator controllers but a lot do apply it to the Sterling unit in particular. For a time Beta made their own version and I believe that was a bit of a disaster.

 

.......................Dave

[MtB]

I suspect battery boiling was a result of "user error" most of the time.

 

Users can be total idiots if you let them......

[dmr]

I think the chances of raising and lowering the voltage being beneficial are quite low. It would be a massive coincidence if it was, given the relative ease with which it can be done.

 

It is reminding me of the electronic 'scale reducers' we have in the plumbing world. 'Radio waves' from wires wrapped around pipes apparently stop water scale from forming. Who'da thunk it!

 

The odd thing is, I change scaled up heat exchangers regularly for peeps who have these devices fitted. I often wonder why...

 

I suspect that cycling the voltage really is a good think so am surprised that other charger/controller manufacturers do not do the same. However its a bit complicated to do and its probably only liveaboard boaters who really benefit. Nick and others have a good theory that the lower charging voltage is good, but Trojan etc suggest some high voltage charging is desirable so a simple cycling is probably a good compromise. Surprised that nobody makes a mains charger to properly do the Trojan suggested curve, it could easily be a software option in a Vicron or whatever. This is of course is very different to pulse charging and the like which probably is electric snake oil.

 

...............Dave

I suspect battery boiling was a result of "user error" most of the time.

 

Users can be total idiots if you let them......

 

Yes, in that they don't realise how quickly hard charging will remove all of the water.

 

..............Dave

[MtB]

 

I suspect that cycling the voltage really is a good think so am surprised that other charger/controller manufacturers do not do the same. However its a bit complicated to do and its probably only liveaboard boaters who really benefit. Nick and others have a good theory that the lower charging voltage is good, but Trojan etc suggest some high voltage charging is desirable so a simple cycling is probably a good compromise. Surprised that nobody makes a mains charger to properly do the Trojan suggested curve, it could easily be a software option in a Vicron or whatever. This is of course is very different to pulse charging and the like which probably is electric snake oil.

 

 

 

I have a sneaky feeling lots of manufacturers will have experimented with it and found no benefit. It's hardly a difficult thing to think of and test to quantify any advantage!

 

So I suspect the snake oil thing still applies....

 

Even so, turning it inside out, maybe no-one has bothered quantifying it as it sounds like snake oil and Adverc have cornered the market!

[Rob99fla]

Rob, a regular set up i fit for continuous cruisers is AGM batteries ( Multicell 125 AH, same size as flooded 110Ah, but twice as heavy.) and a Sterling A to B charger, this gives you the same charge regime as you mains charger but also cuts down on engine running hours considerably. When discussing the AGM's with Multicell they did tell me that the only warranty issues they've had with the AGM's is because the batteries have not been charged hard enough, as they like a good kicking. (There words).

Hope this helps.

Andy.

I have agreed with Halfords to exchange all four batteries for new ones. They had no problem with this. I have ordered a Sterling Pro Reg BW advanced alternator controller as I can't run to the one you suggest. I will fit and make sure I keep up a new regime on the new batteries. I have also increased the charge voltage on the Victron charger to 14.7 volts for when I use the gennie to charge. I have a hydrometer too. Perhaps an equaliser charge every few months too. We have sold the microwave and keeping a careful eye on consumption. As first mentioned, we run the inverter for the 240v fridge freezer (turned off at might). I hope all this works! Edited January 6, 2017 by Rob99fla

[cuthound]

I have agreed with Halfords to exchange all four batteries for new ones. They had no problem with this. I have ordered a Sterling Pro Reg BW advanced alternator controller as I can't run to the one you suggest. I will fit and make sure I keep up a new regime on the new batteries. I have also increased the charge voltage on the Victron charger to 14.7 volts for when I use the gennie to charge. I have a hydrometer too. Perhaps an equaliser charge every few months too. We have sold the microwave and keeping a careful eye on consumption. As first mentioned, we run the inverter for the 240v fridge freezer (turned off at might). I hope all this works!

Sounds like you are going to do all the right things. Keep us appraised of how you get on.

 

Congratulations on the result with Halfrauds.

[Alan de Enfield]

I must admit to being very surprised at Halford's response - maybe its worth paying Halford's prices to know you get your money back if you 'kill your batteries'.

 

Let us know how your new 'regime' goes and if it all works out for you.

 

Every system and requirements is unique and there is no 'one-size-fits-all' answer, but hopefully you have found yours.

[Rob99fla]

I must admit to being very surprised at Halford's response - maybe its worth paying Halford's prices to know you get your money back if you 'kill your batteries'.

 

Let us know how your new 'regime' goes and if it all works out for you.

 

Every system and requirements is unique and there is no 'one-size-fits-all' answer, but hopefully you have found yours.

That's why I got them there in the first place. We are constantly on the move so needed to make sure I had a warranty anywhere. They don't seem at all bothered and to be honest, don't know the first thing about batteries. They just return to Yuasa. I did have a set of Exides before that I had little problem with. Anyway, I will keep a very close eye on the new set once fitted. I hope the Sterling pro reg bw advanced alternator regulator helps once fitted. Thanks for the help. Rob

[WotEver]

If you...

 

Don't discharge too far

Charge regularly

Charge at the correct voltage

Keep an eye on tail current

 

You'll do fine

[ditchcrawler]

 

 

 

Yes, in that they don't realise how quickly hard charging will remove all of the water.

 

..............Dave

Looked after batteries for years and got caught out. Checked batteries regularly and no loss of water so gaps between checking got longer and longer until they got far too long and the level got far too low. Surprisingly the Trojans are still performing good enough for our usage of a maximum of 50Ah use at 24 volts.

[dmr]

Looked after batteries for years and got caught out. Checked batteries regularly and no loss of water so gaps between checking got longer and longer until they got far too long and the level got far too low. Surprisingly the Trojans are still performing good enough for our usage of a maximum of 50Ah use at 24 volts.

 

Done that a few times, think I might go and look at them right now........or maybe tomorrow!

 

...............Dave

[ditchcrawler]

 

Done that a few times, think I might go and look at them right now........or maybe tomorrow!

 

...............Dave

I now do it at the same time as I do an oil and filter change 250 hrs

[Eeyore]

That's why I got them there in the first place. We are constantly on the move so needed to make sure I had a warranty anywhere. They don't seem at all bothered and to be honest, don't know the first thing about batteries. They just return to Yuasa. I did have a set of Exides before that I had little problem with. Anyway, I will keep a very close eye on the new set once fitted. I hope the Sterling pro reg bw advanced alternator regulator helps once fitted. Thanks for the help. Rob

Have just checked my set of Halfords batteries (as per my last post on your previous topic).

They seem to be behaving normally. I disconnected the charger and loaded them using every 12 volt appliance on the boat for some time with no unexpected results. They recovered quickly to better than 12.8 volts despite the freezing temperature. I have previously noted my alternator running close to 14.7 volts, which having followed your experience no longer concerns me.

Maybe there is hope for the next set.

Steve (Eeyore)

[MtB]

 

Go to the products/Adverc Systems section and download the installation instructions. There is also some stuff in the technical library section.

Adverc have a new website and sadly it suffers a bit from the Axiom syndrome of wildly exaggerated claims, I wonder if this is because the main technical man has retired?.

 

................Dave

 

 

Well I'm blowed if I can find the installation instructions there. Or anywhere in the Adverc website. Unless it is there and I'm just not recognising it.

 

Does anyone have the PDF? Or a link to it please?

 

Many thanks.

[mross]

http://www.adverc.co.uk/cm/files/pdf/Adverc_installation_basic.pdf

[MtB]

http://www.adverc.co.uk/cm/files/pdf/Adverc_installation_basic.pdf

 

 

Brilliant, thank you!

 

Puzzled why couldn't I find it though. Was it where Dave said?