Battery type? Help please

[Rob99fla]

My last post regarding battery charging is a bit exhausted now but many thanks for the excellent help I understand more about battery charging regimes. So, assuming I get my money back off Halfords for my duff batteries, what is the best replacement? I suppose I have in mind 4x Trojan T-105 6v batteries but this will require modification of the battery box and may not be possible with the available space and it's cold out right now to be doing too much diy. But, I've heard great things of them. Alternatively, I have seen from Alpha batteries some heavy duty Leoch AGM batteries with 1000 cycle recharges. Also, Qtech AGM batteries of similar spec. Both look very heavy duty and will fit in the box. Are AGM batteries more robust and more forgiving than ordinary wet cells? (mine having failed quickly due to poor charging so I am told) Basically, I don't want to make more mistakes. I'm happy to charge every day and use the Victron set to 14.7 volts to get the batteries to float status once or twice a week (or solar in the summer) Any ideas before I lash out more money. Oh, we live aboard as CC's all the time. Thanks in advance. Rob

Edited January 5, 2017 by Rob99fla

[cuthound]

Any battery will quickly fail if not fully charged on a frequent bas is.

 

AGM's are maintenence free (no liquid electrolyte), which can be a major plus if access is poor. However it does mean you cannot measure specific gravity to assess charge state, leaving only off load voltage and tail current to determine SoC.

 

Generally AGM's will accept a greater charge current than a wet lead acid battery, due to lower internal resistance. This can marginally shorten chargectime and also means they will deliver more current over a short time. Like all batteries, you can get low quality or high quality ones. High quality AGM's (Rolls, Lifeline etc) are eye wateringly expensive.

 

If I were a liveaboard, and once I had mastered looking after batteries, I would be tempted to bite the bullet and go for full traction batteries, as they will stand more abuse for longer. Looked after they will last 10 years plus.

 

Edited to include Alan de Enfield's point that until you have learned how to look after batteries, you can trash expensive ones just as quickly as cheap ones.

Edited January 4, 2017 by cuthound

[Gareth E]

Have you considered the Trojan 27TMX? 12 volt, they are a standard size so should fit in your battery box. They are about twice the price of cheapo leisure batteries. I went through 3 sets of cheapos in 3 years. Partly my fault, poor charging regime, but they were probably not up to the job anyway. So far so good with my TMX.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

If I were a liveaboard, I would be tempted to bite the bullet and go for full traction batteries, as they will stand more abuse for longer. Looked after they will last 10 years plus.

 

I would suggest that until 'you' have proven you can look after a set of 'cheepo' batteries for at least 2 years, then you would be throwing away (around) £1000 on a set of 'full traction' batteries, as you can destroy them as quickly ( a matter of weeks) and easily (just don't charge them properly) as the £50 each batteries.

 

Just consider batteries to be consumables and you will soon stop worrying.

If you have (say) 5 110Ah batteries that cost £50 each it is only around 35p per day if they are 'scrap' after 2 years (even then with current pricing at £10 per scrap battery, you will be getting £50 back from the scrap man)

[Rob99fla]

Have you considered the Trojan 27TMX? 12 volt, they are a standard size so should fit in your battery box. They are about twice the price of cheapo leisure batteries. I went through 3 sets of cheapos in 3 years. Partly my fault, poor charging regime, but they were probably not up to the job anyway. So far so good with my TMX.

Yes. Saw those. They are 105ah right? How long have you had them working? Many thanks. Rob

Have you considered the Trojan 27TMX? 12 volt, they are a standard size so should fit in your battery box. They are about twice the price of cheapo leisure batteries. I went through 3 sets of cheapos in 3 years. Partly my fault, poor charging regime, but they were probably not up to the job anyway. So far so good with my TMX.

Yes. Saw those. They are 105ah right? How long have you had them working? Many thanks. Rob

[WotEver]

There are two basic rules for charging batteries.

 

1. Do no over-discharge them. For normal leisure batteries that generally means don't take them below 50% SoC. Higher SoC is better. Semi-traction cells and full traction cells can occasionally go a fair bit lower than this.

 

2. Charge them as high as practicable daily and then regularly (at least once a week) take them to 100% charged. This may mean 12 hours charging on that day.

 

If either of the above rules are broken then you will shorten the battery life considerably. If either of the above rules are regularly broken then you can kill a batty in weeks, whatever kind of battery it is.

[Rob99fla]

 

I would suggest that until 'you' have proven you can look after a set of 'cheepo' batteries for at least 2 years, then you would be throwing away (around) £1000 on a set of 'full traction' batteries, as you can destroy them as quickly ( a matter of weeks) and easily (just don't charge them properly) as the £50 each batteries.

 

Just consider batteries to be consumables and you will soon stop worrying.

If you have (say) 5 110Ah batteries that cost £50 each it is only around 35p per day if they are 'scrap' after 2 years (even then with current pricing at £10 per scrap battery, you will be getting £50 back from the scrap man)

I appreciate your reply and suggestions about looking after batteries but with all the advice I have now received and I do understand things ok, I now feel confident to get and look after decent batteries. I was thinking of fitting a Sterling advanced battery controller to charge properly from the alternator. We live onboard full time can't spare 2 years learning with a set of standard batteries. We need it to work right now having learnt our lesson. If I can't get money back from Halfords, I will be forced to do what you say but if I can get money back, I will purchase Trojan 12v batteries as suggested plus the alternator controller and keep a very close eye on everything. Thanks again. Rob

[MtB]

2. Charge them as high as practicable daily and then regularly (at least once a week) take them to 100% charged. This may mean 12 hours charging on that day.

 

 

 

If that is truly correct, then there is no hope for my batteries. I am NEVER on the boat from 8am to 8pm.

(Except when cruising that is! And the alternator doesn't charge to 100%. As any fule kno.)

(Despite what the lying SG says).)

[Neil Smith]

As i said in your last post 6 x 2volt cells and they come in many footprint sizes so you might get some to fit your tray, I paid £85 each for mine.

 

Neil

[MtB]

As i said in your last post 6 x 2volt cells and they come in many footprint sizes so you might get some to fit your tray, I paid £85 each for mine.

 

Neil

 

 

6 x 2v only = 12v....

I'd need 12 of them.

[Maffi]

My boat was built in 2006 with 4 Squadron 110a/h AGM leisure batteries. I know where they are and on one occasion I actually had to tighten one of the connectors. Other than that I do not even have to bother looking at them. They are now 10 1/2 years old and still going strong.

 

Yes they were expensive (£200 ea) but I think that is money well spent.

Yes I could have used cheapo flooded batteries and spent just as much over the ten+ years but I would have had to lift them out and lift them back in several times not to mention topping up with water every so often. AGMs can't beat them on my boat.

 

On average I use a land line 2/3 days a year.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Maffi

[andyb116]

Rob, a regular set up i fit for continuous cruisers is AGM batteries ( Multicell 125 AH, same size as flooded 110Ah, but twice as heavy.) and a Sterling A to B charger, this gives you the same charge regime as you mains charger but also cuts down on engine running hours considerably. When discussing the AGM's with Multicell they did tell me that the only warranty issues they've had with the AGM's is because the batteries have not been charged hard enough, as they like a good kicking. (There words).

Hope this helps.

Andy.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

6 x 2v only = 12v....

I'd need 12 of them.

 

As I said above "about £1000 for a set of traction batteries"

 

 

I will be forced to do what you say but if I can get money back,.................

 

To be honest, I would be very, very doubtful about you getting your 'money back'.

Battery guarantees are guarantees against 'manufacturing faults' (case splitting, terminals snapping off, etc etc). I have never heard of anyone getting a refund under guarantee for batteries that have been destroyed by the owner over discharging or under charging.

Good luck tho'.

[Alan de Enfield]

We live onboard full time can't spare 2 years learning with a set of standard batteries. We need it to work right now having learnt our lesson. .................

 

The 'care and maintenance' regime for Trojans is very little different to that of 'standard' leisure batteries - yes they will take a little more abuse, but they are not proper traction batteries, you will still need to fully charge them, monitor your discharge levels and top up the 'water' regularly just as you would with 'standard' batteries.

 

If, as you say, you have 'learnt your lessons' then confirming that with 'standard batteries' will be no more time consuming that with Trojans, if, however, you have not fully understood the commitment needed then the finacial penalty will be much less.

 

Your boat - your money - your life.

[WotEver]

If that is truly correct, then there is no hope for my batteries. I am NEVER on the boat from 8am to 8pm

I did say "may"

 

Once the Sun God stops sulking your solar will do it.

[Grassman]

I've been reading this thread with interest because 18 months ago I bought 4 cheap leisure batteries and they are already having difficulty keeping their charge when we are out cruising.

 

We are liveaboards but for 8 months of the year the boat is connected to the landline supply with our Victron 3000 inverter set to 'charger', so it doesn't much matter. But when we are out cruising the solar panels and the engine charges them and that's when we have the problems.

 

Even allowing for the fact we have a large inverter and a 240v fridge freezer (which we often turn off at night) I'm nevertheless disappointed the batteries haven't fared better. I will soon be replacing them with better quality ones because IMO cheap is false economy.

[dmr]

Standard forum advice is to learn with cheapo leisures then get Trojans (or just possibly 2 volt tractions) but maybe this should be questioned.

At present a set of Trojans should be available for £110 each whilst it won't be easy to get cheapos for less than £70 each so the difference is not that huge. I also suspect (with no real evidence) that even if abused the Trojans will probably last twice as long as the cheapos, and if (when) they get sulphated will probably handle a hard equalisation rather better, so maybe going straight in with the Trojans is not such a bad idea.

This has the advantage that you are learning on the real thing. Its a bit sad to kill nice batteries but then you do get a bit more when you weight them in.

There is also the "mtb variation" of learning on "cheapo Trojans" which is probably even better.

 

...............Dave

[Rob99fla]

 

As I said above "about £1000 for a set of traction batteries"

 

 

 

To be honest, I would be very, very doubtful about you getting your 'money back'.

Battery guarantees are guarantees against 'manufacturing faults' (case splitting, terminals snapping off, etc etc). I have never heard of anyone getting a refund under guarantee for batteries that have been destroyed by the owner over discharging or under charging.

Good luck tho'.

Maybe I can't get money back but fortunately, when I exchanged the last set, I had to buy them first before I got a refund on the first set therefore, I have a new receipt dated November for the new set. I won't tell them it's the second set, I have decided. Just get a replacement set of 4. Halfords staff are normally happy to just exchange as they send them back to Yuasa

[Alan de Enfield]

...........whilst it won't be easy to get cheapos for less than £70 each ..........

 

I posted details last week of 'cheapos' at £50 each. (£59 inc. next day delivery)

That makes Trojans at £110 twice the price.

[mross]

Maybe I can't get money back but fortunately, when I exchanged the last set, I had to buy them first before I got a refund on the first set therefore, I have a new receipt dated November for the new set. I won't tell them it's the second set, I have decided. Just get a replacement set of 4. Halfords staff are normally happy to just exchange as they send them back to Yuasa

Halfords will scan your receipt and their records will show that your current batteries are exchanges.

[cuthound]

I would suggest that until 'you' have proven you can look after a set of 'cheepo' batteries for at least 2 years, then you would be throwing away (around) £1000 on a set of 'full traction' batteries, as you can destroy them as quickly ( a matter of weeks) and easily (just don't charge them properly) as the £50 each batteries.

A good point, I assumed he had learned the hard way how to look after batteries. I will amend my post to include this.

 

Edited to remove a spurious "b".

Edited January 4, 2017 by cuthound

[cuthound]

My boat was built in 2006 with 4 Squadron 110a/h AGM leisure batteries. I know where they are and on one occasion I actually had to tighten one of the connectors. Other than that I do not even have to bother looking at them. They are now 10 1/2 years old and still going strong.

 

Yes they were expensive (£200 ea) but I think that is money well spent.

Yes I could have used cheapo flooded batteries and spent just as much over the ten+ years but I would have had to lift them out and lift them back in several times not to mention topping up with water every so often. AGMs can't beat them on my boat.

 

On average I use a land line 2/3 days a year.

When I bought my 2007 vintage boat in 2014, it came with 660Ah of Lifeline AGM's, plus Lifeline AGM starter and BT batteries. Almost £2000 worth in total.

 

I tested these by undertaking a controlled discharge, and found them to still have 65% of their badged capacity. The boat however is a leisure boat, so spends a lot of time on a shoreline . According to the BMV the deepest discharge has been to 60% SoC, so they have been well treated.

[Mac of Cygnet]

Please sir, I had to replace my 2 leisure batteries last year after 9 years use, cruising for 6 months a year with no solar panels or hook-up. They were only deeply discharged twice five years ago (stuck bilge pump in winter) to the extent of not a glow in the lights. Did they fail because they were both yellow? Or because I only topped them up twice a year?

 

To make matters worse my starter battery had to be replaced last year too! It had only lasted 12 years! Do you think I should ask for my money back?

[system 4-50]

Please sir, I had to replace my 2 leisure batteries last year after 9 years use, cruising for 6 months a year with no solar panels or hook-up. They were only deeply discharged twice five years ago (stuck bilge pump in winter) to the extent of not a glow in the lights. Did they fail because they were both yellow? Or because I only topped them up twice a year?

Neither. They failed because you didn't equalise them every ten minutes, with an extra 3 day continuous full charge whenever Mars is in the ascendant.

Replace them with 12 tractor (sic) batteries and charge them as before (but only with good electrons) and tell us if they last the week.

[Murflynn]

what nonsense.

 

Batteries are inert, are like a box, and just store electrical stuff.

There is no reason why they shouldn't last forever.

Don't believe a word of this business about depth of discharge, etc.

If the box is empty just fill it again with electrical stuff.

 

That's all you need to know about batteries.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...................................... coat.