Irwell in Manchester

[Heartland]

Should the Irwell see more boats. The recent talk about under ground canals and the lost canals must be put into perspective as the length beyond the Docks is still linked to the network even if it involves locking through the lock from the Bridgewater Canal. From there the entrance to the Manchester, Bolton & Bury new basin via the new locks can be reached. The Irwell is also navigable for a short distance past the old warehouses there. Perhaps with dredging and new moorings, it might make an alternative to Castlefield.

 

 

 

The Warehouses before conversion

[mark99]

I walked over the Manchester Irwell in the mid eighties every term day for 4 years stopping and hoping to see any signs of fish life. Never saw owt in the river. Not even a small fish topping early morning. Has it recovered yet?

Edited January 2, 2017 by mark99

[Laurence Hogg]

Having pushed NB "Progress" to the limit of navigation on the Irwell a few years ago I would not recommend it for any duration of mooring, it is cleaner now but very temperamental in flow, winding under the station bridges was a little exciting to say the least! There is stuff to see and explore like the Hulme flume outfall, but its a adventurous day out, very likely finishing with a pint at the Mark Addy pub which has moorings.

[billh]

The upper limit of navigation for narrowboats on the Irwell is New Bridge St/Mirabel St. bridge just beyond Victoria Station. it is possible to wind 70ft boats a little downstream of New Bridge st. Be very aware though, at times of heavy rain the computer(one of those that says"no") controlled sluices at Mode Wheel Locks can open in seconds and the level in the river drop 2 or 3 ft in a matter of 30 minutes, enough to leave you high and dry at the top end. If you want to explore the limits, tow another boat backwards till you get there, then use that one to tow you back to deeper water to wind at the Cathedral , near where the romantically named River Irk runs into th'Irwell.

[Tim Lewis]

Having pushed NB "Progress" to the limit of navigation on the Irwell a few years ago I would not recommend it for any duration of mooring, it is cleaner now but very temperamental in flow, winding under the station bridges was a little exciting to say the least! There is stuff to see and explore like the Hulme flume outfall, but its a adventurous day out, very likely finishing with a pint at the Mark Addy pub which has moorings.

The Mark Addy pub was 'destroyed' by the Xmas 2015 floods. Did it ever reopen?

 

Tim

Edited January 3, 2017 by Tim Lewis

[magpie patrick]

Professional opinion: The Irwell could, and should, be used far more, there are several reasons why it isn't, including lack of facilities, lack of awareness that it is navigable, and the cost. Also, in my view, Pomona lock is in the wrong place - the old Hulme Locks were better located for the Irwell and the MB&B although I realise there were good reasons they were abandoned.

 

Personal note - this reminds me why I want (and have) two boats, one of them trailable. Once Lutine is down here It'll be a long time before she gets back up there, if ever.

[John Brightley]

the old Hulme Locks were better located for the Irwell and the MB&B although I realise there were good reasons they were abandoned.

Out of curiosity, why were they abandoned ? I note that they are a listed structure ( https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1208196) so they have to be maintained anyway.

[mayalld]

Out of curiosity, why were they abandoned ? I note that they are a listed structure ( https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1208196) so they have to be maintained anyway.

 

Can I add a me too to that question.

 

It always seemed an odd thing to do to build a brand new lock at huge expense when there is an extant structure (and one that appears from the glimpses you get leaving Castlefield, and from its use in TV Drama to be intact with gates that may well be beyond use, but which are still holding water back)

[Heartland]

May be there is a case to reopen Hulme Locks, and perhaps they should be reopened in view of the need to keep them in repair. However would Peel Ports be keen to do so? If it there is a hint of profit like moorings and facilities, may be a cause to do so will suddenly surprise folk.May be Mr Moss could come up with a business case.

[magpie patrick]

A variety of reasons, mainly driven by the regeneration of Manchester and Salford Docks, Hulme Locks were awkward to use and I think the conversion to a single lock was somewhat makeshift and reaching the end of it's life. The lock itself is difficult to get access to which makes any structural work rather harder to manage, especially now that using boats to do it has gone out of fashion. You can get vehicles to Pomona Lock

 

Thus Pomona lock gave a brand new lock that should be trouble free for many years that gives more direct access to the heart of the redevelopment area, the trouble for central Manchester is that means that the connection is about two miles out of town. Castlefields is next to Irwell but ne'er the twain shall meet.

 

In effect, a lot of capital was used to "solve" a maintenance problem - it happens sometimes when there is a lot of capital available

May be there is a case to reopen Hulme Locks, and perhaps they should be reopened in view of the need to keep them in repair. However would Peel Ports be keen to do so? If it there is a hint of profit like moorings and facilities, may be a cause to do so will suddenly surprise folk.May be Mr Moss could come up with a business case.

 

Thank you for the complement!

 

It was the bare bones of a business case that I was mulling over when making my comments, but no one has commissioned me to do one (yet)

[captain birdseye]

The upper limit of navigation for narrowboats on the Irwell is New Bridge St/Mirabel St. bridge just beyond Victoria Station. it is possible to wind 70ft boats a little downstream of New Bridge st. Be very aware though, at times of heavy rain the computer(one of those that says"no") controlled sluices at Mode Wheel Locks can open in seconds and the level in the river drop 2 or 3 ft in a matter of 30 minutes, enough to leave you high and dry at the top end. If you want to explore the limits, tow another boat backwards till you get there, then use that one to tow you back to deeper water to wind at the Cathedral , near where the romantically named River Irk runs into th'Irwell.

There goes the voice of experience. I remember the old Irwell rally days well

[mayalld]

A variety of reasons, mainly driven by the regeneration of Manchester and Salford Docks, Hulme Locks were awkward to use and I think the conversion to a single lock was somewhat makeshift and reaching the end of it's life. The lock itself is difficult to get access to which makes any structural work rather harder to manage, especially now that using boats to do it has gone out of fashion. You can get vehicles to Pomona Lock

 

Thus Pomona lock gave a brand new lock that should be trouble free for many years that gives more direct access to the heart of the redevelopment area, the trouble for central Manchester is that means that the connection is about two miles out of town. Castlefields is next to Irwell but ne'er the twain shall meet.

 

In effect, a lot of capital was used to "solve" a maintenance problem - it happens sometimes when there is a lot of capital available

 

Thank you for the complement!

 

It was the bare bones of a business case that I was mulling over when making my comments, but no one has commissioned me to do one (yet)

 

With every answer you intrigue me more!

 

The trouble with Hulme Locks is that they are tantalisingly JUST about visible as you go past (less so with all the posh flats that keep springing up), but have been out of use for a long time, and I've never seen them in use, plus access issues mean that you can't really go and have a look at them.

 

That means that my mental picture of what is there may well be a very long way from what is on the ground.

 

My impression is of a lock broadly parallel to the railway viaduct and the Bridgewater, leading to a basin where boats turn right through 90 degrees to enter a lock under the viaduct that drops into the Irwell.

 

I am assuming, based on the observed levels, that the upper lock was only ever a fairly shallow fall, with most of the fall in the lower lock (I've seen it described as Hulme Deep Lock), and that at some point the level in the basin was raised to the Bridgewater level, with boats passing through the upper lock on a level.

 

1) Is that about right.

2) Was the 2 lock system about clearance under the viaduct, or just about the maximum fall the could engineer gates for, or something else.

3) If the upper lock was shallow, how did they manage the water supply to the lower lock...

 

Edited to add;

 

http://waterwayroutes.co.uk/blog/bridgew-hlb-00-465-02/#scroll

 

seems to suggest that I have it fairly well OK.

Edited January 3, 2017 by mayalld

[Pluto]

This is the old top lock and entrance to the old second lock in 1973 after they had been replaced by a deepening of the third lock. Ease of operation and time taken by the Bridgewater flats working to Kelloggs was, I think, the reason they were replaced. The car is my 1947 Rover 12.

[magpie patrick]

 

With every answer you intrigue me more!

 

The trouble with Hulme Locks is that they are tantalisingly JUST about visible as you go past (less so with all the posh flats that keep springing up), but have been out of use for a long time, and I've never seen them in use, plus access issues mean that you can't really go and have a look at them.

 

That means that my mental picture of what is there may well be a very long way from what is on the ground.

 

My impression is of a lock broadly parallel to the railway viaduct and the Bridgewater, leading to a basin where boats turn right through 90 degrees to enter a lock under the viaduct that drops into the Irwell.

 

I am assuming, based on the observed levels, that the upper lock was only ever a fairly shallow fall, with most of the fall in the lower lock (I've seen it described as Hulme Deep Lock), and that at some point the level in the basin was raised to the Bridgewater level, with boats passing through the upper lock on a level.

 

1) Is that about right.

2) Was the 2 lock system about clearance under the viaduct, or just about the maximum fall the could engineer gates for, or something else.

3) If the upper lock was shallow, how did they manage the water supply to the lower lock...

 

Edited to add;

 

http://waterwayroutes.co.uk/blog/bridgew-hlb-00-465-02/#scroll

 

seems to suggest that I have it fairly well OK.

 

 

There were three locks originally, why three rather than one deep one at right angles to the canal I don't know. The overall fall was around 12 feet, perhaps a bit more. It always struck me it would have been easier to build one lock or a staircase pair in a straight line rather than the flight of three relatively shallow locks. They descend into the Medlock rather than the Irwell.

 

In the late 1950's (I think) the walls of the lower lock were built up so it became a single deep lock, and new deeper gates were added (thus the depth over the top cill was around 12 feet!). This was done with the locks in use, a system of scaffolding poles and ladders allowed boatmen down to work the paddles from the walls high above for a short period of time. The top gates of the top lock were left in situ, presumably to allow the lock to be sealed off.

 

I'm told that barges used to use the top two locks backwards, especially towards the end when the main traffic was to Kelloggs at Trafford Park

 

The locks were opened in 1839, my railway knowledge is sketchy but the Liverpool and Manchester had already opened and the alignment would suggest there was already a railway overhead when they were built. The only reason clearance would have been an issue was if masted vessels were expected (even with the single lock it must be more than 15 feet!).

This is the old top lock and entrance to the old second lock in 1973 after they had been replaced by a deepening of the third lock. Ease of operation and time taken by the Bridgewater flats working to Kelloggs was, I think, the reason they were replaced. The car is my 1947 Rover 12.

 

A picture tells a thousand words - just to clarify I assume you mean replaced by the single deep lock, Pomona lock wasn't built until long after trade had stopped, although it would have made the traffic much easier

[Señor Chris]

This is the old top lock and entrance to the old second lock in 1973 after they had been replaced by a deepening of the third lock.

 

Is this the correct location, with your photo looking roughly north east? :

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4734203,-2.262186,20z/data=!3m1!1e3

[Captain Pegg]

Is this the correct location, with your photo looking roughly north east? :

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4734203,-2.262186,20z/data=!3m1!1e3

Yes

[kevinl]

"From there the entrance to the Manchester, Bolton & Bury new basin via the new locks can be reached."

 

I doubt the new neighbours will want that to happen, the restoration of the Middlewood Locks was to increase the value of the site nothing more.

It was a done deal any guess who got done?

K

 

http://www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=3611

[Heartland]

 

Hulme Locks was as completed in 1839 a waterway that may well have been restricted by the piers of the Liverpool & Manchester Railway looking at the third ordnance survey (1915/6) the river lock was not only hemmed in by the original LMR but other later railway lines.

[magpie patrick]

Hulme Locks.png

 

Hulme Locks was as completed in 1839 a waterway that may well have been restricted by the piers of the Liverpool & Manchester Railway looking at the third ordnance survey (1915/6) the river lock was not only hemmed in by the original LMR but other later railway lines.

 

Thanks, that confirms that the railway came first.

 

I still wonder why they didn't go for one deep lock or two not so deep locks in a straightish line rather than three on such a bend

[Pluto]

The first edition 6in OS shows that these locks were built before the railway. The water supply here was somewhat complex, with a stop lock on the main canal next to the Hulme Locks. This ensured that the relatively polluted water coming down the Medlock and feeding into the canal was only a problem as far as Hulme, where it returned to the Medlock via the locks and byewashes. Water for the main canal came from the Rochdale in a culvert along the bed of the canal, relatively clean Rochdale Canal water entering the Bridgewater to the west of the stoplock. A further supply came from the Cornbrook as it crossed the canal.

 

The use of three locks suggests that they may have been worried about water usage here, the final lock into the river would also need to accommodate any variation in level caused by excessive rainwater water coming down the Irwell and Medlock. The layout may have resulted from the land available for the locks, and the need to enter the Medlock at right angles.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Pluto

[magpie patrick]

Thanks Pluto, lots of useful extra info there.

 

I've little doubt that the layout results from the requirement to squeeze three locks in, in fact, if you take the railway away the layout still makes sense once everything you have mentioned is considered (shallow locks, contamination control etc). I seem to recall from a guided walk of the area about 30 years ago that the Medlock may have been straightened for the railway to be built.

 

I don't suppose anyone has been foolish enough to try and get a boat up the Medlock nave they?

[Pluto]

Having had a look through the material I have re the Bridgewater, the stop gate may have been closer to Castlefield, where there was a toll office. If you continue up the Medlock, you would end up in the tunnel under the weir between the two older arms.

[nebulae]

One thing to be gratefull for. If the new Pomona Lock had not been built ,Peel would probably filled in the remaining dock. The loss of the old warehouses and fixing of the swing bridge has left a huge desolate area. I have a photo someware of the condemed barges from the Bridgewater fleet lifted out on Pomona Dock,awaiting cutting up.

[DHutch]

On 05/01/2017 at 20:24, nebulae said:

One thing to be gratefull for. If the new Pomona Lock had not been built ,Peel would probably filled in the remaining dock. The loss of the old warehouses and fixing of the swing bridge has left a huge desolate area. I have a photo someware of the condemed barges from the Bridgewater fleet lifted out on Pomona Dock,awaiting cutting up.

Also true!

On 02/01/2017 at 23:20, billh said:

The upper limit of navigation for narrowboats on the Irwell is New Bridge St/Mirabel St. bridge just beyond Victoria Station. it is possible to wind 70ft boats a little downstream of New Bridge st. Be very aware though, at times of heavy rain the computer(one of those that says"no") controlled sluices at Mode Wheel Locks can open in seconds and the level in the river drop 2 or 3 ft in a matter of 30 minutes, enough to leave you high and dry at the top end. If you want to explore the limits, tow another boat backwards till you get there, then use that one to tow you back to deeper water to wind at the Cathedral , near where the romantically named River Irk runs into th'Irwell.

 

Some very interesting information here, a part of the waterways system I have been past many times, but never ventured on.

 

Partuarly the comment about fast-moving levels at the limit of navigation, I guess you would then be stuck for an unknown about of time!

 

I see in another post the fee for Pomona lock was £21 in 2009 which seems fairly reasonable, presumably per boat, do many boats go through.

 

Something I would like to do I think.

 

 

Daniel

[pearley]

Waterways Journal No. 4 has a picture of the canal by the top Hulme Lock being deepened. The text states that the bottom lock was converted into one deep lock in 1962.