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Brexit 2017

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41 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

Project fear has become project stark reality, more like.

By "the movement" do you mean the new fascists of Europe?

No, the growing rejection of modern socialist/ liberal politics via democracy, across the world. Attempting to slur the character of ordinary people who have grown tired of having undesirable change foisted upon them by calling them fascists and such like appears to be the only response the establishment has.   

Edited by Gareth E

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2 hours ago, Gareth E said:

Project fear in full flow, once again. Despite project fear, the movement continues to gain momentum. 

I had a movement this morning in the loo. Much the same as your movement I think but I flushed mine away.

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10 minutes ago, Bee said:

I had a movement this morning in the loo. Much the same as your movement I think but I flushed mine away.

You might have thought you had flushed it away, but I'm sure it will be back to haunt you soon.

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Here in sunny Crete the Germans still can't work out why we are leaving, and the Swedes totally get why we are leaving, a bit like this forum to be honest 😂

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Here in communist Kerala, India the government has decided that women may join men in the temples, under the mantra of equality, against a tradition that goes back to the creation of Hinduism. The men reacted by stoning the women as they arrive at the temples and government workers announced a 2 day strike. Taxi drivers are agreeing to short journeys only to prevent being caught up in the many riots.

 

Back in the relative calm of the coastal resort it's mostly pro Brexit although Germany think we're really, really stupid. Denmark want their own referendum while France say we should do what we like, as should Italy. Australia can't believe we're being bullied by these people, what's wrong with us? America, appalled by the concept of the European Union expect their Democrats, utterly frustrated by their failure to prevent Trump prospering in his role to resort to violence in the near future but this will be quashed with ease, due to the Democrats being excellent at name calling but limp wristed when it comes to anything else.

 

That's about it really.   

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1 hour ago, Gareth E said:

Here in communist Kerala, India the government has decided that women may join men in the temples, under the mantra of equality, against a tradition that goes back to the creation of Hinduism. The men reacted by stoning the women as they arrive at the temples and government workers announced a 2 day strike. Taxi drivers are agreeing to short journeys only to prevent being caught up in the many riots.

 

Back in the relative calm of the coastal resort it's mostly pro Brexit although Germany think we're really, really stupid. Denmark want their own referendum while France say we should do what we like, as should Italy. Australia can't believe we're being bullied by these people, what's wrong with us? America, appalled by the concept of the European Union expect their Democrats, utterly frustrated by their failure to prevent Trump prospering in his role to resort to violence in the near future but this will be quashed with ease, due to the Democrats being excellent at name calling but limp wristed when it comes to anything else.

 

That's about it really.   

I'm not really sure why you keep holding up India as an example of anything. So men throw stones at women, to me that says a whole lot more about the men than it does about their Government. My understanding is that Indian women are getting just a bit pissed off at the prevalence of rape and the acceptance so far of it. The rape and murder of Jyoti Singh Pandey back in 2012 seems to have been the final straw for Indian women so now they are pushing back, and as far as I'm concerned, good luck to them and shove 'ancient tradition' where the sun doesn't shine.

 

I also can't see how the Americans view Trump as, 'prospering in his role' other than like a lot of other crap leaders, he's trousering a fortune from Government funds that he himself doesn't feel obliged to contribute to. He's broken a lot of stuff but hasn't constructed anything worthwhile yet in his getting on for two years of failing to be much of a President (only just over two to go before another election circus). When you read of a so-called President engaging in a spat with a porn star you just think, "Can this idiot get any lower or has he reached the bottom of the gutter?"

Edited by Wanderer Vagabond

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8 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I'm not really sure why you keep holding up India as an example of anything. So men throw stones at women, to me that says a whole lot more about the men than it does about their Government. My understanding is that Indian women are getting just a bit pissed off at the prevalence of rape and the acceptance so far of it. The rape and murder of Jyoti Singh Pandey back in 2012 seems to have been the final straw for Indian women so now they are pushing back, and as far as I'm concerned, good luck to them and shove 'ancient tradition' where the sun doesn't shine.

 

I also can't see how the Americans view Trump as, 'prospering in his role' other than like a lot of other crap leaders, he's trousering a fortune from Government funds that he himself doesn't feel obliged to contribute to. He's broken a lot of stuff but hasn't constructed anything worthwhile yet in his getting on for two years of failing to be much of a President (only just over two to go before another election circus). When you read of a so-called President engaging in a spat with a porn star you just think, "Can this idiot get any lower or has he reached the bottom of the gutter?"

I only mentioned the Hindu temple thing as an aside. To be honest I think it's a bit pathetic but there again I'm neither Indian, Hindu nor have I had a change foisted upon me so really, what I might think counts for nothing.

 

Many Americans seem to think Trump is doing an excellent job. You do wonder for example, why previous presidents allowed the likes of China a free reign to steal copyrights and intellectual property. This wouldn't be allowed at home, so why allow China to do it? Fear of upsetting them of course, a typical limp wristed democrat trait.   

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4 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

I only mentioned the Hindu temple thing as an aside. To be honest I think it's a bit pathetic but there again I'm neither Indian, Hindu nor have I had a change foisted upon me so really, what I might think counts for nothing.

 

Many Americans seem to think Trump is doing an excellent job. You do wonder for example, why previous presidents allowed the likes of China a free reign to steal copyrights and intellectual property. This wouldn't be allowed at home, so why allow China to do it? Fear of upsetting them of course, a typical limp wristed democrat trait.   

I'm not sure that I can be bothered to argue about the difference between US republicans and democrats, from the UK perspective their policies are pretty much indistinguishable so if you wish to describe one as limp-wristed, the other must be much the same. I can however recognise a crooked President when I see one.

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18 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The right is increasing it's vote share throughout the world, not just Europe (Brazil seems next to fall)and is riding on the enthusiasm to blame 'the other' for our failings, and immigrants have always been a good scapegoat. Explain how the EU has caused the rise in extreme right wing in Brazil? How has the EU caused the rise of the extreme right wing in the Philippines (Duterte)? Was the EU to blame for Trump? Once they have risen they do not, as you seem to think, just naturally wither, they usually have to be deposed by force since they have an irritating habit of changing the rules to ensure that they remain in power. Erdogan in Turkey has already started that particular process. When the right bring any project to its knees, it will always portray itself as the potential saviour from the problems that it has itself caused.

 

Barnier, by the way will be considered nothing more than a minor bit player, it may well be the most important thing going for us in the UK but Brexit isn't as big as we'd like to think it to be for the rest of Europe, they are all quite busy with other issues within their own countries to be that bothered. This is why the hope of brexiteers that the EU will suddenly cave in to our will isn't going to happen any time soon, for them it really isn't that important.

Brasil has had a relatively short and poor democratic history so far so no surprise the far right elements are still there. I do agree though the far right has increased in all kinds of places and is an unwelcome trend.  What centre politicians (left, right or in the middle) and all democrats need to work out is why this trend is occurring.  It is not by accident for sure and people that feel disenfranchised with the powers that be and their democratic governments are not listening hard enough to what people's priorities and needs are.  The rise of the far right in places is a wakeup call to stop pursuing policies that they think we need and start listening to what is wrong with people's lives and what they want.  

 

I do not mean that politics needs to be about doing only what is popular we cannot always get exactly what we want but unless governments realise that people are fed up with taking medicine forced upon them (often seemingly for the benefit of the already rich) and want to feel listened to and engaged with.  Disengagement with politics is a dangerous place that creates a vacuum for unscrupulous people to take advantage of. If the political landscape does not change people understandably will turn to those who will take advantage and promise policies and outcomes (unlikely to be delivered) that will convince them the far right is worth voting for. A drowning man does not ask who is throwing the life ring they just want to be saved.

Edited by churchward

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17 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I'm not sure that I can be bothered to argue about the difference between US republicans and democrats, from the UK perspective their policies are pretty much indistinguishable so if you wish to describe one as limp-wristed, the other must be much the same. I can however recognise a crooked President when I see one.

Are you serious? Clinton v Trump isn't quite Corbyn v Farage, Corbyn being to the left of Clinton, but it's not very far off.  

 

3 minutes ago, churchward said:

Brasil has had a relatively short and poor democratic history so far so no surprise the far right elements are still there. I do agree though the far right has increased in all kinds of places and is an unwelcome trend.  What centre politicians (left, right or in the middle) and all democrats need to work out is why this trend is occurring.  It is not by accident for sure and people that feel disenfranchised with the powers that be and their democratic governments are not listening hard enough to what people's priorities and needs are.  The rise of the far right in places is a wakeup call to stop pursuing policies that they think we need and start listening to what is wrong with people's lives and what they want.  

 

I do not mean that politics needs to be about doing only what is popular we cannot always get exactly what we want but unless governments realise that people are fed up with taking medicine forced upon them and want to feel listened to and engaged with.  Disengagement with politics is a dangerous place that creates a vacumn for unscrupulous people to take advantage of. If the political landscape does not change people understandably will turn to those who will take advantage and promise policies and outcomes (unlikely to be delivered) that will convince them the far right is worth voting for. A drowning man does not ask who is throwing the life ring they just want to be saved.

Wise words as always. Listen and make changes, desist from hurling insults. Otherwise they are guaranteeing their own demise.

Edited by Gareth E

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4 hours ago, Gareth E said:

You might have thought you had flushed it away, but I'm sure it will be back to haunt you soon.

Yeh having a cassette or pump out is not so much goodbye as Au revoir! to the excrement😀

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2 minutes ago, churchward said:

Yeh having a cassette or pump out is not so much goodbye as Au revoir! to the excrement😀

That wasn't quite what I meant but I take the point nevertheless.

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7 minutes ago, churchward said:

Brasil has had a relatively short and poor democratic history so far so no surprise the far right elements are still there. I do agree though the far right has increased in all kinds of places and is an unwelcome trend.  What centre politicians (left, right or in the middle) and all democrats need to work out is why this trend is occurring.  It is not by accident for sure and people that feel disenfranchised with the powers that be and their democratic governments are not listening hard enough to what people's priorities and needs are.  The rise of the far right in places is a wakeup call to stop pursuing policies that they think we need and start listening to what is wrong with people's lives and what they want.  

 

I do not mean that politics needs to be about doing only what is popular we cannot always get exactly what we want but unless governments realise that people are fed up with taking medicine forced upon them (often to the seemingly for the benefit of the already rich) and want to feel listened to and engaged with.  Disengagement with politics is a dangerous place that creates a vacuum for unscrupulous people to take advantage of. If the political landscape does not change people understandably will turn to those who will take advantage and promise policies and outcomes (unlikely to be delivered) that will convince them the far right is worth voting for. A drowning man does not ask who is throwing the life ring they just want to be saved.

The problem with the right is that they ignore the problem but go for the easy targets. The problem is the increasing concentration of wealth and power in fewer and fewer hands, which means that the remainder are left to fight over what scraps are left. The right will universally tell you that it is the immigrants that are to blame for all of this whereas the actual culprits are a lot closer to home. The right, by giving the left-behind a target they can find, immigrants, fuel conflict whereas if they give them a target they will be unable to find, like Philip Green, not much will happen. When they fuel such conflict, inevitably the target will retaliate and it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy where the right will then tell you,"See, we told the immigrants were like that", and the cycle continues.

 

The other side of it is that the few who have acquired wealth and power are not going to give it up easily.

16 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

Are you serious? 

 

Yes, their policies are almost indistiguishable. For all the hot air of Trump over immigration, Obama actually deported more people, policies were the same it's just that Trump makes more noise about it. The difference between the Republicans and Democrats is about the same as the differences within the Conservative Party.

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8 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The problem with the right is that they ignore the problem but go for the easy targets.

As Gareth E illustrates in countless posts on this forum (well, I can't be mithered counting them anyway).

6 hours ago, Gareth E said:

Attempting to slur the character of ordinary people who have grown tired of having undesirable change foisted upon them by calling them fascists and such like appears to be the only response the establishment has.   

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it probably isn't an elephant, I'd say

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31 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

Are you serious? Clinton v Trump isn't quite Corbyn v Farage, Corbyn being to the left of Clinton, but it's not very far off.  

 

Had you said Trump v Saunders you may have almost had a valid point, but Saunders was far too left wing to be a Democratic nomination, the first time in recent history that anyone other than a right of centrist has got anywhere in a US election. But I always find it amusing for someone who is to scared to release his tax returns due to what it will show, has the brass neck to call another candidate crooked, but then Trump is such a shameless liar that you can expect anything of him.

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3 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

As Gareth E illustrates in countless posts on this forum (well, I can't be mithered counting them anyway).

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it probably isn't an elephant, I'd say

Well that's OK, if you believe that calling people names is going to achieve any objective at all, you should continue doing it.

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34 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The problem with the right is that they ignore the problem but go for the easy targets. The problem is the increasing concentration of wealth and power in fewer and fewer hands, which means that the remainder are left to fight over what scraps are left. The right will universally tell you that it is the immigrants that are to blame for all of this whereas the actual culprits are a lot closer to home. The right, by giving the left-behind a target they can find, immigrants, fuel conflict whereas if they give them a target they will be unable to find, like Philip Green, not much will happen. When they fuel such conflict, inevitably the target will retaliate and it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy where the right will then tell you,"See, we told the immigrants were like that", and the cycle continues.

 

I agree that is how they often work.  But it is no good just knowing how they work unless democrats work on the reasons people feel the need to turn to the extremes of politics and what is wrong in their lives. The answer will not be found in saying how bad they are but by listening to people's needs that are not being addressed that is leading to them turning to what seems hopeful messages from the far right. In other words the far right are a symptom of a problem not the root cause.

Edited by churchward
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