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Canopus and Sculptor


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Nick - just to be clear - there were two images (one on this thread and one on a previous thread about Sculptor) that were taken from the Sculptor blog which I had express permission to use on Sculptor's blog - it says very clearly on the blog that they are copywrite of the two owners identified; Ron Shettle/Cath Turpin and Brinklow Boat Services. A link to the page would not have concerned me because they are being linked to in their original context but to say (and I quote) 'grabbed from Sculptor's blog' puts them in the public domain in the wrong context in my view. You ask what the loss to the owners is - it's their intellectual property right and the images belong to them. Have a look at post No7.

Here's a link to the place where the images are - http://nbsculptor.blogspot.co.uk/p/gallery.html

Well for the record and as a neutral observer, it just seems a shame that a photo can't be shared between like minded folk without it getting all possessive. You're probably within your rights/have the law on your side when you object, but ultimately no-one has "gained" and no-one has "lost" anything that a simple acknowledgement of the source wouldn't have fixed. I did ask what the loss was but your answer doesn't explain to me what the loss is, it merely explains who the IP owner is and I'm sure that isn't in dispute.

 

If someone wanted to reproduce a photo I'd taken I'd be flattered, not looking to get it expunged. Mind you, my photography leaves plenty to be desired!

  • Greenie 1
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The OP used the Sculptor image as an example of how he thought it <the rudder mounting detail rearwards of prop> should be done - an exemplar if you will.

 

Seems a bit harsh.

Edited by mark99
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I think?? most have been using photo from the internet to show something we talk about, right or wrong. it is easy to do, impossible to protect a photo that we have taken or have the rights to. a bit different from a book or magazine.

 

Sharing a photo is like giving, and that is what Christmas is about,

 

so from now we can talk about boats, swims, Christmas food and happiness and forget about a mistake made.

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Good evening all...

 

Firstly Leo my apologies. You are correct, the image of Sculptors rear end is marked as copyright Brinklow. I acknowledged the source as being the Sculptor blog but hadn't asked permission to use it. (Technically it wasn't your image, it was my screen grab of the page that your image was on, but I won't disguise my ignorance behind that defence). I should have asked to use it, I will try much harder to be PC the next time.

 

The second photo that was posted which shows the back end of Canopus has been given to me by the previous owner with no copyright restrictions.

 

nb Canopus is indeed now in my custody, she is mine, fully paid for and my comments about her handling are based on my own experiences so far.

 

I asked for a second opinion about the design from my father who holds a PhD from the Cranfield Institute of Hydrodynamics, is a world renown figure in fluid dynamics (Fellow of the Institute of both Mechanical and Civil Engineers) and thus can be considered as a competent authority for the purposes of this conversation.

 

So far Canopus has handled like a pig. This may have something to do with the 26" dia 4 blade prop, it may be the consequence of the skeg support post being so close to the leading edge of the rudder. It maybe also be due to the weed hatch that doesn't seal correctly.

 

The 10hp twin prop bow thruster seems to be the only useful component and has already saved my ass on a number of occasions. From this comment please do not assume I am reckless, far from it, I am very respectful of this 26 tonne monolith and the damage it can do.

 

From a design perspective the vertical post before the rudder's leading edge is horrible and will be removed. The flat skeg will be modified to an upward facing T section and the prop diameter will be reduced to maintain necessary tip clearances.

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The cheap "clone craft" holiday boat this summer has considerably better handling than Canopus, despite much shorter swims and no aft profiling.

 

I mean, just look at the anode position! The swims taper to feed undisturbed water into the propellor... so the very last thing you want to do is interrupt the flow's boundary layer just before the prop....

 

Choice - have the anode knocked off or put it in a handy recess which might make 0.0000000000000000001% hull/prop efficiency difference. :)

Edited by mark99
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To see a Dave Harris stern with this offending vertical post before the rudder there is another photo here (that I daren't copy but you can see for yourselves):

 

http://walkerstug.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/rudder-and-skeg.html

 

and here is the one from Canopus which, to the best of my understanding from the person who owned the camera I am able to use freely without copyright restriction:

 

post-22620-0-24018300-1482693495_thumb.jpg

 

 

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In the hope that this image can be used to help reinstate the original thread fully. This is the stern end of Sculptor out of the water at Braunston in September 2014 which I am happy is used because I own the intellectual property right to it so I can say it can be used! Apologies for not thinking of this earlier; it's probably a better image anyway.

 

DSC_1422.JPG

Edited by Leo No2
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Same hull builder, I think, so probably not surprising that the constructional details are similar.

 

Correct, same hull builder as Cobbett. I don't actually recall seeing it out of the water but must have done while it was being built. The hull builder has vast experience of building canal boats and is generally well regarded - there is a small bit of understatement there. Although other people might choose to build the skeg differently (Simon & Steve at Brinklow Boat Services for instance) I think the hull builder had built a few without any problems, see Wrigglefingers comment. I do love everyone being coy about the name of the hull builder.

 

I helped the original owners pick the boat up from Norton Canes where the hull was taken for grit blasting following launch and steered it round most of the Wyrley & Essington/Daw End Branch/Rushall Canal/Tame Valley and apart from smacking the coping coming off the Rushall Canal (it picked up a bladefull so didn't hold back, that's my excuse) don't recall thinking "this handles really badly, I'd rather be on the back of a proper one"*. I steered it on a few subsequent occasions - surprised the owners by how quickly it went round the bends with the Frodingham piles near Mancetter - and again, wouldn't say it handled badly.

 

 

Well said AF. R Fuller and the Brinklow team are no mugs. Too much theorising. It's not Ben Ainslee racing design territory or a super motor cruiser.

 

Quite. It went like train from my memory of it.

 

This thread is a bit cryptic but I gather from one comment it now has a four bat blade on it. This was not the case when first launched:

 

DSCF0012_zpsjsvcz8ew.jpg

 

 

*which I would, obviously

 

 

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Well for the record and as a neutral observer, it just seems a shame that a photo can't be shared between like minded folk without it getting all possessive. You're probably within your rights/have the law on your side when you object, but ultimately no-one has "gained" and no-one has "lost" anything that a simple acknowledgement of the source wouldn't have fixed. I did ask what the loss was but your answer doesn't explain to me what the loss is, it merely explains who the IP owner is and I'm sure that isn't in dispute.

 

If someone wanted to reproduce a photo I'd taken I'd be flattered, not looking to get it expunged. Mind you, my photography leaves plenty to be desired!

 

Thank you Nick, you share my sentiments entirely. There's no profit or gain to be had from using the photo, only the sharing of information already in the public domain that is more convenient than a reader having to follow a link.

 

But, I concede, it's not my site and rules are rules.... so fair enough - but maybe rules can be modified too to allow for common sense? The moderators apparently received a strong complaint so they reacted accordingly.

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Good evening all...

 

Firstly Leo my apologies. You are correct, the image of Sculptors rear end is marked as copyright Brinklow. I acknowledged the source as being the Sculptor blog but hadn't asked permission to use it. (Technically it wasn't your image, it was my screen grab of the page that your image was on, but I won't disguise my ignorance behind that defence). I should have asked to use it, I will try much harder to be PC the next time.

 

The second photo that was posted which shows the back end of Canopus has been given to me by the previous owner with no copyright restrictions.

 

nb Canopus is indeed now in my custody, she is mine, fully paid for and my comments about her handling are based on my own experiences so far.

 

I asked for a second opinion about the design from my father who holds a PhD from the Cranfield Institute of Hydrodynamics, is a world renown figure in fluid dynamics (Fellow of the Institute of both Mechanical and Civil Engineers) and thus can be considered as a competent authority for the purposes of this conversation.

 

So far Canopus has handled like a pig. This may have something to do with the 26" dia 4 blade prop, it may be the consequence of the skeg support post being so close to the leading edge of the rudder. It maybe also be due to the weed hatch that doesn't seal correctly.

 

The 10hp twin prop bow thruster seems to be the only useful component and has already saved my ass on a number of occasions. From this comment please do not assume I am reckless, far from it, I am very respectful of this 26 tonne monolith and the damage it can do.

 

From a design perspective the vertical post before the rudder's leading edge is horrible and will be removed. The flat skeg will be modified to an upward facing T section and the prop diameter will be reduced to maintain necessary tip clearances.

Please feel free to use the image in Post No5 in this thread (http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=89012). I own the copywrite as it is my image and you are most welcome to use it.

 

Happy Christmas.

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Many thanks for your input David, I had wanted to ask if anyone here had handled her in the past, great input.

 

With most thinks flow related it's the interaction of all components together that give the result.

 

The original prop was indeed as above 24" 3 blade but with a minute imbalance on one blade that lead the previous owner to change it out.

 

An Axiom was fitted briefly, nicknamed "the Dyson" apparently for all the crap that it managed to gather from far and wide.

 

That has recently been replaced by a 26" four blade which is what has been fitted since I took ownership.

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2 things please for those of us that are totally baffled reading this thread...

 

1) any chance of a photo of Canapous?

 

2) who built it please?

 

2) While I was writing my post someone blew it and spoiled the fun:

 

 

"To see a Dave Harris stern with this offending vertical post before the rudder there is another photo here (that I daren't copy but you can see for yourselves

 

1) I'll see what I can find in the album to upload to photobucket.

 

 

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Having a vertical bar just in front of the rudder seems very odd to me. Telemachus has a big rudder, steers relatively well in neutral (much better than other modern narrowboats I've steered) and very well in gear albeit with fairly high tiller forces.

 

However it doesn't take that much - very shallow water with leaves on the bottom, or other rubbish on the prop for example - to pretty much lose all steering. The tiller goes light and nothing much happens even though most of the prop water seems to be coming out the back end.

 

Therefore I can well imagine that putting a bar just in front of the rudder could totally mess up the flow and thus the effectiveness of the rudder. I just wonder who thought this could be a good idea!?

 

Telemachus back end, for reference.

 

post-9028-0-98351500-1482695059_thumb.jpg

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That's very kind of you, thanks.

 

The builder is Dave Harris, one of the nicest and most honest guys you could ever wish to deal with and a highly skilled and experienced fabricator of sheet metal.

 

He is the first to acknowledge (and one of the very few that will) that he is not a naval architect and has never studied the principles of hydrodynamics. He did this during our previous personal conversations when I discussed the possibilities of him building my "curvy" hull, discussed elsewhere on here.

 

The hull was sold by him without CE certification. A member of the Brinklow team completed the build and signed Canopus off as CE approved meeting regulation requirements etc.

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I have not steered any narrow narrowboat, but been guided through one, once. so not an expert on that.

But i guess dpaws just need more experiance driving this one that have a big slow high pitched propeller, that I am sure is different from the other he has been steering. and also seems to be over propped with the 4 bladed prop. 4 blades should make it better with a smaller diameter and smaller more even impulses on the rudder.

No gear, no steer. is commen and just takes some planning and time at the controls to become a lover of.

 

The propeller seems to sit to close to the swim/dead wood, to be perfect, if the vertical bar make any thing good or bad for steering I don't know. probably not, the anodes could be smaller and streamlined, that will help.

 

Dpaws how is the balance of the rudder forces? in the photo if right angled it is a 17.4% balance area, seems good

Edited by Dalslandia
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Thank you Nick, you share my sentiments entirely. There's no profit or gain to be had from using the photo, only the sharing of information already in the public domain that is more convenient than a reader having to follow a link.

 

But, I concede, it's not my site and rules are rules.... so fair enough - but maybe rules can be modified too to allow for common sense? The moderators apparently received a strong complaint so they reacted accordingly.

 

Rearranging the words "teacup", "storm", "a" and "in" seems appropriate. Anyway I have commented on the handling/hydrodynamic issues on the other thread (which could do with being merged IMO).

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It seems to me that Canopus is over-propped. Cobbett at 62' had a 20" square prop on her and I had absolutely no issues whatsoever. She also had no fake fake rivets either.

 

If I recall correctly, Canopus was only a 'loose copy' of a Northwich and had some amendments to the design called for by the owner. They were documented here at one point. If I can find a link, I'll post it.

 

Being as we have two threads running on the boat, I'm going to merge the threads and move the whole lot to Building and Maintenance rather than History and Heritage.

Edited by wrigglefingers
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In the original first post you moaned about some "expert fitted a four bladed prop which stopped the flow getting to the rudder"

Yet later in this post you said it was you that changed the prop so how can you moan about something which you did yourself

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In the original first post you moaned about some "expert fitted a four bladed prop which stopped the flow getting to the rudder"

Yet later in this post you said it was you that changed the prop so how can you moan about something which you did yourself

 

 

The 4 blade 26" was on the boat when dpaws bought it

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Good evening all...

 

Firstly Leo my apologies. You are correct, the image of Sculptors rear end is marked as copyright Brinklow. I acknowledged the source as being the Sculptor blog but hadn't asked permission to use it. (Technically it wasn't your image, it was my screen grab of the page that your image was on, but I won't disguise my ignorance behind that defence). I should have asked to use it, I will try much harder to be PC the next time.

 

The second photo that was posted which shows the back end of Canopus has been given to me by the previous owner with no copyright restrictions.

 

nb Canopus is indeed now in my custody, she is mine, fully paid for and my comments about her handling are based on my own experiences so far.

 

I asked for a second opinion about the design from my father who holds a PhD from the Cranfield Institute of Hydrodynamics, is a world renown figure in fluid dynamics (Fellow of the Institute of both Mechanical and Civil Engineers) and thus can be considered as a competent authority for the purposes of this conversation.

 

So far Canopus has handled like a pig. This may have something to do with the 26" dia 4 blade prop, it may be the consequence of the skeg support post being so close to the leading edge of the rudder. It maybe also be due to the weed hatch that doesn't seal correctly.

 

The 10hp twin prop bow thruster seems to be the only useful component and has already saved my ass on a number of occasions. From this comment please do not assume I am reckless, far from it, I am very respectful of this 26 tonne monolith and the damage it can do.

 

From a design perspective the vertical post before the rudder's leading edge is horrible and will be removed. The flat skeg will be modified to an upward facing T section and the prop diameter will be reduced to maintain necessary tip clearances.

 

Good evening to you too dpaws,

 

and my congratulations with your investment in a boat built by one of the top builders, who as you said is a real nice guy, of which I have the same experience.

 

Is this boat an inbetween boat to cruise on until your own designed hull is built, or did you give up on that idea ?

 

Anyway, I wish you a good time cruising the canals on her, and a great and healthy 2017 to you, and to all the other forum members too.

 

Peter.

Edited by bargemast
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Good evening to you too dpaws,

 

and my congratulations with your investment in a boat built by one of the top builders, who as you said is a real nice guy, of which I have the same experience.

 

Is this boat an inbetween boat to cruise on until your own designed hull is built, or did you give up on that idea ?

 

Anyway, I wish you a good time cruising the canals on her, and a great and healthy 2017 to you, and to all the other forum members too.

 

Peter.

 

Thank you Peter, that's very kind of you - best wishes to you and yours too.

 

I still fully intend to have my curvy hull design built, but have realised that I need to be in the UK and close to the build workshop whilst it's in progress because it's so different to the norm.

 

nb Canopus will provide that UK base for me, and will also be our family cruiser for many years to come, I am sure.

 

She's a beauty but with some teething problems, but that's all part of the fun and provides valuable experience on the canals. I suspect the new 26" prop which was fitted before I collected her is responsible for some of the present woes. The vertical post isn't good, but it makes no sense that Dave Harris would continue with a design if it had proved troublesome, and as others have posted, they've had good experiences with the same layout.

 

Slowly slowly we'll change things around until my expectations are either met or until I've lowered them, as Jan said, my expectations may simply be unrealistic.

 

Rudder forces aren't consistent and change with speed. Typically the right arm aches a lot more than the left on an evening after cruising. At close to 90kg I'm not lightly built and it takes my full strength and full rudder deflection at times with very little effect.

 

The bow thruster that was fitted later is excellent, very very impressive indeed. At slow speed we rounded a small island marina in a howling gale without touching another object. It's when the revs increase that it all feels very strange indeed, both forward and aft.

 

I'll be inviting experienced hands to take her out in April and from their feedback I'll no doubt have a better idea of where any issues may lie.

 

For now the prop is No.1 suspect, but I'll remove the vertical post and modify the skeg when she's next out of the water.

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