Engine electrics issue

[imranino]

Hi Gang,

 

I just tied up after a day of cruising, went to turn off the engine but nothing happened when I hit the 'Engine Stop' button.

 

I checked the button first, shorted it but nothing happened. Tried tinkering with the key position (Aux-Off-Ign-Start) and tried the headlights, horn and bilge pump which were all responding.

 

I located the engine stop switch on the engine and pulled it, the engine stopped as normal.

 

Now, however, the engine won't start and none of the above mentioned electrics are working.

 

Before I go barking up the wrong tree and getting my hands dirty, I wonder what the hive mind might make of this?

 

Thanks!

[Eeyore]

Hi Gang,

 

I just tied up after a day of cruising, went to turn off the engine but nothing happened when I hit the 'Engine Stop' button.

 

I checked the button first, shorted it but nothing happened. Tried tinkering with the key position (Aux-Off-Ign-Start) and tried the headlights, horn and bilge pump which were all responding.

 

I located the engine stop switch on the engine and pulled it, the engine stopped as normal.

 

Now, however, the engine won't start and none of the above mentioned electrics are working.

 

Before I go barking up the wrong tree and getting my hands dirty, I wonder what the hive mind might make of this?

 

Thanks!

Usually a fuse in the supply to the panel.

Which engine do you have?

Edited November 23, 2016 by Eeyore

[WJM]

You need electric power to stop a marine engine - the solenoid that stops the engine cannot work without the electrics being switched on. Very commonly, when I lend my boat to friends they call me in a panic because they have switched off the key (like in a car) but the engine wont stop no matter how much they now press the stop button!

 

If this is not happening (you still have the electrics on) then you must have a problem with the stop solenoid. Check it's wiring first. Them maybe the solenoid itself

[Chewbacka]

A diesel (in a boat not a car which is very different) only needs electric to power the starter motor and the stop solenoid.

It does not need electric power to run as everything is mechanical.

 

If the stop solenoid is energised to stop (many are) then if the stop button did not work then either there is no power or there is a fault with that circuit.

 

Now a number of things are possible. So some questions before ideas -

 

1) When you say does not start do you mean does not crank or cranks and does not fire?

2) When you stopped the engine it sounds like you used the mechanical stop, if so this needs putting back into the run position, so if you pulled it out, push it back. This will not prevent the engine cranking, but it will never 'fire' - been there and done that myself.

3) What is the starter battery voltage?

[imranino]

Thanks for such rapid response!

 

So right now there's no power at all in the engine or the control panel. So turning the key does absolutely nothing, headlights etc not working. Everything running off the leisure batteries working fine. The starter is reading 13.2

And the mechanical engine stop is spring loaded so it went right back. It's a Beta Marine

[Chewbacka]

Thanks for such rapid response!

 

So right now there's no power at all in the engine or the control panel. So turning the key does absolutely nothing, headlights etc not working. Everything running off the leisure batteries working fine. The starter is reading 13.2

I don't know how your boat is wired, but the following are worth thinking about -

 

1) There is a big relay that is failing to turn on - not probable as it would have to be very big and therefore expensive

2) The main fuse has blown for the engine start battery

3) The battery cables have come loose or the clamp on the battery terminal is loose.

4) A bad battery earth connection to the engine block.

 

If you measure volts with no load you may get a 'good' reading but if it is a high resistance contact - eg poor battery cable clamp - then under load the resistance will prevent current flow and voltages downstream can then go very low.

 

Added - when I say loose, I don't mean look loose, just not tight and so will need a waggle to check. Be very careful to ensure the battery has not been charging if touching the battery cables as a spark could ignite hydrogen around the battery. However if the engine has not run for a while and you have not used a charger in the last 10 mins you should be ok.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Chewbacka

[WJM]

I am thinking that your starter battery may have become disconnected - check the terminals on the battery but also the point where the neutral strap joins the hull.

Edited November 23, 2016 by WJM

[imranino]

Oh, I just checked the headlight, horn and bilge pump. They're all working. Nothing when I try to start the engine though.

 

So I doubt the issue is with the solenoid itself, it seems like there's no power getting to the engine at all.

[Alan de Enfield]

Seeing as nothing connected to the starter battery is working - check the starter battery switch (normally that big red thing) - has it been accidentally knocked or turned ?

[imranino]

Oh, I just checked the headlight, horn and bilge pump. They're all working. Nothing when I try to start the engine though.

 

So I doubt the issue is with the solenoid itself, it seems like there's no power getting to the engine at all.

[Murflynn]

Thanks for such rapid response!

 

So right now there's no power at all in the engine or the control panel. So turning the key does absolutely nothing, headlights etc not working. Everything running off the leisure batteries working fine. The starter is reading 13.2

And the mechanical engine stop is spring loaded so it went right back. It's a Beta Marine

so you haven't checked the fuse?

[Eeyore]

Thanks for such rapid response!

 

So right now there's no power at all in the engine or the control panel. So turning the key does absolutely nothing, headlights etc not working. Everything running off the leisure batteries working fine. The starter is reading 13.2

And the mechanical engine stop is spring loaded so it went right back. It's a Beta Marine

The fuse is often located in the wiring close to the starter motor, it's a 40 amp blade type. Some have a rubber cover. The fuse can suffer from corrosion which will give the same symptoms, try cleaning it, or just working it in and out of the holder.

40 amp fuses aren't that common, but you may get a start or two from a 30 or 35 until you can get hold of the right one. It's the glow plugs that need the higher rating.

[Chewbacka]

Pumps and lights etc will work and it wont crank if the earth wire to the block is no good.

 

Also as above, the fuse if ng will prevent the engine cranking as it supplies power to the starter solenoid (contactor) but the other circuits such as pumps etc should not go through the fuse so will still work.

 

Added - Your engine probably has (at least) two fuses, a big one to protect the battery and main cables and a little one buried somewhere in the engine wiring harness. Possibly a relay as well which may have a problem.

 

If you tell us the age and type of engine you may get better advice from someone with the same set-up

Edited November 23, 2016 by Chewbacka

[mross]

The fault may have started while the engine was still running and that's why you could not stop it. So, I'm also thinking some connection has loosened. Have you got 12V across the terminals of your stop button (when 'ignition' switch is on?

Edited November 23, 2016 by mross

[Guest]

The fault may have started while the engine was still running and that's why you could not stop it. So, I'm also thinking some connection has loosened.

One of those horrible multi pin connectors on the engine harness?

[nicknorman]

Beta engines generally have a multi-way connector in the engine wiring loom. They can be prone to getting damp and corroded. So I'd locate that and unplug it to check for corrosion.

[imranino]

The fuse is often located in the wiring close to the starter motor, it's a 40 amp blade type. Some have a rubber cover. The fuse can suffer from corrosion which will give the same symptoms, try cleaning it, or just working it in and out of the holder.

40 amp fuses aren't that common, but you may get a start or two from a 30 or 35 until you can get hold of the right one. It's the glow plugs that need the higher rating.

Found it! Thanks, I'd have never been able to locate it otherwise. It was surprisingly intact. BUT:

Beta engines generally have a multi-way connector in the engine wiring loom. They can be prone to getting damp and corroded. So I'd locate that and unplug it to check for corrosion.

Damp? I found it and it was soaked! Liquid was dripping out of it! One of the connectors completely burned out Do you know why this happens? Any way to avoid it in future?

 

 

So is the next step to replace this multi-connector?

Edited November 23, 2016 by imranino

[Phil Ambrose]

Beta engines generally have a multi-way connector in the engine wiring loom. They can be prone to getting damp and corroded. So I'd locate that and unplug it to check for corrosion.

Those multi-way connectors are the spawn of the devil, I had a similar problem which proved to be the multi connector, a pair of crimps and a handful of bullet connectors soon sorted it.

Phil

[imranino]

Those multi-way connectors are the spawn of the devil, I had a similar problem which proved to be the multi connector, a pair of crimps and a handful of bullet connectors soon sorted it.

Phil

I can certainly concur, Phil. OK, I'll go down that route. Any ways to avoid this in future?

 

For a more long-term solution, should I get one of these and fit it?

Edited November 23, 2016 by imranino

[Chewbacka]

You can get dielectric grease, car manufacturers use it on harness connections in wet areas - like inside the front door shuts for central locking etc.

[Eeyore]

That's an impressive failure, the average one is just full of wet green corrosion.

The harness plug on mine is a multiway based on bullet connectors, and a good tight fit. I think I might go down the bullet connector route if I were in your position. You will need to be careful to fit insulated female bullets to the normally live ends.

For instance the feed from the engine to the panel will have the female on the engine side, whereas the feed to the glow plugs will have the female on the harness side.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Eeyore

[WotEver]

You can get dielectric grease, car manufacturers use it on harness connections in wet areas - like inside the front door shuts for central locking etc.

I've used this with great success on a kit car (similar to the above):

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/greases/0283404/?searchTerm=Insulating+grease&relevancy-data=636F3D3126696E3D4931384E4C446573635461786F6E6F6D794272616E645365617263685465726D325F74656D70266C753D656E266D6D3D6D617463687061727469616C6D617826706D3D5E5B5C707B4C7D5C707B4E647D3F5C707B5A737D2D2C2F255C2E5D2B2426706F3D31313326736E3D592673743D4B4559574F52445F4D554C54495F414C5048415F414E445F4D554C54495F414C5048415F4E554D455249432673633D592677633D4E4F4E45267573743D496E73756C6174696E6720677265617365267374613D496E73756C6174696E672067726561736526

[Horace42]

Re pic in #17. Apart from the 'liquid' problem - is it bilge water? do you need to quickly disconnect something - hence a plug&socket device. Hard wire the cables to a permanent screw connector.

 

 

 

 

[imranino]

Big thanks for all the help, I wouldn't have know where to look without you guys!

 

EPILOGUE:

 

I pulled out the male and female terminals that were corroded and had burned out, attached them outside of the multi-way plug and that was enough to get the engine started again, HOORAY!

[imranino]

That's an impressive failure, the average one is just full of wet green corrosion.

The harness plug on mine is a multiway based on bullet connectors, and a good tight fit. I think I might go down the bullet connector route if I were in your position. You will need to be careful to fit insulated female bullets to the normally live ends.

For instance the feed from the engine to the panel will have the female on the engine side, whereas the feed to the glow plugs will have the female on the harness side.

Yes, I wonder why a fuse didn't blow?

 

So rather than having a single, 11-way connector block, you'd suggest 11 bullet connectors instead?

I've used this with great success on a kit car (similar to the above):

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/greases/0283404/?searchTerm=Insulating+grease&relevancy-data=636F3D3126696E3D4931384E4C446573635461786F6E6F6D794272616E645365617263685465726D325F74656D70266C753D656E266D6D3D6D617463687061727469616C6D617826706D3D5E5B5C707B4C7D5C707B4E647D3F5C707B5A737D2D2C2F255C2E5D2B2426706F3D31313326736E3D592673743D4B4559574F52445F4D554C54495F414C5048415F414E445F4D554C54495F414C5048415F4E554D455249432673633D592677633D4E4F4E45267573743D496E73756C6174696E6720677265617365267374613D496E73756C6174696E672067726561736526

Pardon mi ignorance, but how would I use this in this instance? Would I just fill the connector with the grease?