Looking for info on living abroad in Europe

[Guest]

Brexit and its implications directly affects all answers to the OP's question. Burying one's head in the sand won't make these issues go away. Post #8 says it all. If you're planning a trip to Europe with your boat in two and a half years' time you will only be able to stay for three months.

 

How is that 'derailing the thread'?

 

The main concern for those with boats over there already is that, like current boats visiting from outside the EU, after six months they become liable for VAT on the value of the boat with boat seizure until paid the likely and immediate action.

 

That is not trivial but I will wager anything you like that such a minority interest will get lost in the noise over Brexit negotiation. The rapaciousness of many European customs is legendary (try going to France with red diesel in your tanks) and if it isn't spelt out they will seize the opportunity to make money from boaters.

 

I respectfully suggest you read what I wrote in post #21, which preceded your post and not actually what you think I wrote. Yes it's relevant up to a point and if specifically related to boating in Europe, however the introduction of the 'B' word inevitably derails the topic onto other broader none boating matters.

 

That was the point.

Edited November 13, 2016 by MJG

[Tam & Di]

For vessels between 15 and 24 metres there are licensing requirements.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. 15m is significant for some purposes but I can't think of anything concerning 24m. However 25m is a significant upper length in Netherlands and Germany.

 

Here's a link to a page in my Barge Handling blog which sets out helmsman certification - there is stuff about narrowboats in France there too on the previous page.

 

http://www.bargehandling.com/Bargehandling.com/BARGE_HANDLING_BLOG/Entries/2016/11/4_Certification_for_helmsmen_of_Pleasure_Craft_onInland_Waterwaysin_Europe.html

Edited November 13, 2016 by Tam & Di

[carlt]

 

I respectfully suggest you read what I wrote in post #21, which preceded your post and not actually what you think I wrote. Yes it's relevant up to a point and if specifically related to boating in Europe, however the introduction of the 'B' word inevitably derails the topic onto other broader none boating matters.

 

That was the point.

I find that the discussion about the perceived derailment tends to drag on far longer than an offhand comment that is usually overtaken by other more pertinent matters.

[Guest]

I find that the discussion about the perceived derailment tends to drag on far longer than an offhand comment that is usually overtaken by other more pertinent matters.

Indeed it can do, but only when people keep adding to it though eh....

[blackrose]

 

Unfortunately it's happening across a number of forums at the moment. As soon as any body mentions anything to do with Europe whether it be boating, caravanning, using mobile phones abroad, currency etc etc etc....someone always manages to drag in the 'B' subject.

 

And it's frankly very tiresome.......

But also very relevant.

[Guest]

But also very relevant.

See post 21

 

Yes but the problem is as soon as its touched on a whole very interesting thread gets derailed because topics not remotely relevant start being discussed. And we already have a thread running for the ruddy 'B' word.

As for the relevance of the b word I would dispute that because given the information wandering snail posted above it would appear the scope for taking a traditional type narrow boat to lots of European waterways are going to be scuppered anyway even without the impact of us leaving the EU.

 

Orr have I read that information wrongly?

Edited November 13, 2016 by MJG

[magictime]

I takes very few post on this forum to change an innocent question on boating in europe to a whinge from frustrated remainers on the subject of Brexit.

 

Unfortunately it's happening across a number of forums at the moment. As soon as any body mentions anything to do with Europe whether it be boating, caravanning, using mobile phones abroad, currency etc etc etc....someone always manages to drag in the 'B' subject.

 

And it's frankly very tiresome.......

 

Absolutely ludicrous comments. The 'innocent' question was about the OP's plan to spend a few years living in mainland Europe. It's 100% pertinent to point out that he may or may not have the right to do so in two or three years' time, depending on the terms of our exit from the EU.

 

Yes but the problem is as soon as its touched on a whole very interesting thread gets derailed because topics not remotely relevant start being discussed.

 

Argh! The irrelevant comments that derailed the thread were these irrelevant comments about derailing the thread!

 

Edited November 13, 2016 by magictime

[Guest]

I will say it for the third time. If the comments are relevant to boating yes, however the point was adequately explained ie it unfortunately leads to discussion on none boating issues.

 

And for the second time given wandering snail's comments I am not sure the b word is the biggest issue boaters who want to go to Europe face anyway.

[carlt]

 

 

Absolutely ludicrous comments. The 'innocent' question was about the OP's plan to spend a few years living in mainland Europe. It's 100% pertinent to point out that he may or may not have the right to do so in two or three years' time, depending on the terms of our exit from the EU.

 

 

Argh! The irrelevant comments that derailed the thread were these irrelevant comments about derailing the thread!

 

Edited November 13, 2016 by carlt

[wandering snail]

See post 21

 

 

As for the relevance of the b word I would dispute that because given the information wandering snail posted above it would appear the scope for taking a traditional type narrow boat to lots of European waterways are going to be scuppered anyway even without the impact of us leaving the EU.

 

Orr have I read that information wrongly?

We've been fortunate so far with our full length narrowboat. Most waterways authorities are simply interested in the story of our 'unusual' boat but, moored in Groningen last week the talk from the bridgekeepers there was how things were tightening up so maybe cruising during the last 8 years here we have had the best of it. A red ensign post Brexit may not be the most welcome flag to be flying either. Will let you know as we travel through Netherlands, Belgium and maybe France next year.

[Martin Megson]

I'll be interested to see how the 15m rule is applied in future as I'm 16.7

[Phoenix_V]

I'll be interested to see how the 15m rule is applied in future as I'm 16.7

It is not ideal but you will manage. It is too long for some marinas and you will not be popular on small mooring "haltes" where you take the space of 2 boats (mooring to the towpath is not possible in many places for a whole variety of reasons). Lock working is almost always done from the boat and you will need longer ropes and suitable bollards on the boat. Do join the dba and buy a few books, "cruising the Continental Waterways" (Martin) would be a good start.

 

We took our boat to Rochester down the tidal Thames (an adventure in itself) to reduce the lorry costs, lorry from Rochester to Dunkirk

cost £1170 - both marinas have their own crane so the craneage was about £450 in total. We then cruised in Western Belgium for the first few weeks to acclimatise ourselves on the small non commercial waterways there before venturing onto the commercial waterways with the enourmous locks and 3000 ton barges. Some people have their boat taken all the way to Central France by lorry to avoid these canals, quite a sensible decision but costs much more.

[Peter X]

Reading the various responses it sounds to me as if the main difficulty looming up is that some regulations applying to all boats on the continent over 15m in length are to be enforced more strictly whatever the flag on the back.

 

So is it the case that the real impact of Brexit upon anyone from the UK taking their boat to Europe is the question of how long they personally will be allowed to stay, and that there is generally a limit of three months for people who are not EU citizens? It's not something I personally plan to do, but it is very relevant to the topic, although a politically loaded comment that the PM is "hellbent" on losing rights to travel is not helpful. At present a UK citizen has a right to live in and seek work in any EU country, and following Brexit, subject to the negotiations, it may well be that the EU restricts this, but I'm sure the UK government won't be asking them to. The right to seek work would probably be the first to be restricted, but is not relevant to this topic.

 

The real issue then is whether a UK boater will be limited to say a three month period, and whether that's for one country or the EU as a whole. As leisure boaters mean income from tourism, I think we should "follow the money" and speculate that the governments will have no motive to limit their stay, unless they are spiteful enough to see it as a way to punish the UK for Brexit. The noises coming from Brussels suggest perhaps they are; for the time being we just don't know, so yes, anyone planning a long trip on their boat in Europe may consider going sooner rather than later, or investigating the recent talk of UK citizens being invited to apply individually to keep EU citizenship, with whatever obligations that might carry.

[Tam & Di]

I'll be interested to see how the 15m rule is applied in future as I'm 16.7

 

Sorry but I'm still confused. What do you mean by 15m rule? What limitations on a craft ≥15m do you see as a problem? If it helps the major one is you can't go into Germany. Marinas elsewhere do often have a 15m limit but seldom apply it too strictly. You will need to hold an ICC, but it would be very foolish not to apply for that as one aspect of it is you have to demonstrate knowledge of the CEVNI rules - the highway code for inland boating - and you will be mixing it with some serious commercial traffic that will rightfully demand that you know the code.

[Phoenix_V]

Reading the various responses it sounds to me as if the main difficulty looming up is that some regulations applying to all boats on the continent over 15m in length are to be enforced more strictly whatever the flag on the back.

 

So is it the case that the real impact of Brexit upon anyone from the UK taking their boat to Europe is the question of how long they personally will be allowed to stay, and that there is generally a limit of three months for people who are not EU citizens? It's not something I personally plan to do, but it is very relevant to the topic, although a politically loaded comment that the PM is "hellbent" on losing rights to travel is not helpful. At present a UK citizen has a right to live in and seek work in any EU country, and following Brexit, subject to the negotiations, it may well be that the EU restricts this, but I'm sure the UK government won't be asking them to. The right to seek work would probably be the first to be restricted, but is not relevant to this topic.

 

The real issue then is whether a UK boater will be limited to say a three month period, and whether that's for one country or the EU as a whole. As leisure boaters mean income from tourism, I think we should "follow the money" and speculate that the governments will have no motive to limit their stay, unless they are spiteful enough to see it as a way to punish the UK for Brexit. The noises coming from Brussels suggest perhaps they are; for the time being we just don't know, so yes, anyone planning a long trip on their boat in Europe may consider going sooner rather than later, or investigating the recent talk of UK citizens being invited to apply individually to keep EU citizenship, with whatever obligations that might carry.

Above 20m will have problems between 15 and 20 much less, lots of info on the dba website.

 

As far as visa rules go I think you are missing the point here, unless Mrs May negotiates a special deal for us either with the EU as a whole or (if EU rules allow?) individual countries. Then the EU will not need to do anything the standard Schengen terms will automatically kick in. It will be 3 months in the whole of the Schengen area not individual countries. Then no return within 3 months.

 

There is no evidence whatsoever that she is likely to negotiate such a deal, on the contrary she appears to be hellbent on keeping Europeans out of the UK which would imply they will reciprocate.

 

This link gives some more background

 

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/after-a-hard-brexit-british-citizens-and-residence-in-the-eu/?utm_source=FM+master+list&utm_campaign=b6364d5485-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_WEEKLY&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_792133aa40-b6364d5485-116269245&mc_cid=b6364d5485&mc_eid=7aa280fb08

Edited November 14, 2016 by Phoenix_V

[DHutch]

While I understand that the pending 'Brixit' may well impact the OP and their plan to take their boat to Europe by lorry, if we could keep the topic focused on the boat element rather than the more wide-ranging impacts on movement of people within the EU that would I think be most helpful to the OP.

 

 

Daniel

[Martin Megson]

 

Sorry but I'm still confused. What do you mean by 15m rule? What limitations on a craft ≥15m do you see as a problem? If it helps the major one is you can't go into Germany. Marinas elsewhere do often have a 15m limit but seldom apply it too strictly. You will need to hold an ICC, but it would be very foolish not to apply for that as one aspect of it is you have to demonstrate knowledge of the CEVNI rules - the highway code for inland boating - and you will be mixing it with some serious commercial traffic that will rightfully demand that you know the code.

 

It was mainly the access to Germany. As for training I plan to do the relevant training because, as you say, there are large commercial boats making a living on the system who will expect others to know how to behave.

While I understand that the pending 'Brixit' may well impact the OP and their plan to take their boat to Europe by lorry, if we could keep the topic focused on the boat element rather than the more wide-ranging impacts on movement of people within the EU that would I think be most helpful to the OP.

 

 

Daniel

 

Thanks Daniel. I think the potential impact of Britex was a fair point to raise and is certainly something I'll be watching over the next couple of years. However, there is little point in speculation at this stage.

[junior]

What is Brexit?

[Alan de Enfield]

What is Brexit?

 

I can only assume that it is a mis-spelling of the company Britax who manufacture security systems (car seat belts, kids car seats, buggies, etc)

 

Britax 'mission statement' is :

 

We know there’s nothing like the first time. Here at Britax firsts are our way of pushing boundaries so that you can live family life on your own terms.

[Tam & Di]

 

It was mainly the access to Germany.

 

If you have Germany in your sights then it is a problem. I believe Mr & Mrs Snail were simply escorted off a river they should not have been on, but another DBA member had his barge impounded until he could return with a properly certified helmsman. I would not think it worth the risk. They will accept Dutch, Belgian and French certificates for craft up to 25m, but you have to be reasonably fluent in Dutch or French - we did used to examine for the French certificate (in English) but you had to have a boat ≥20m for the practical so you fall through that hole as well.

 

The DBA has been trying to get the German authorities to change their mind on this for several years now, but it is extremely unlikely that they will. The only people affected really are those relying on an ICC, and Brexit would seem to wipe out whatever faint hope there might have been.

 

There's good cruising in the other countries though

[Martin Megson]

 

If you have Germany in your sights then it is a problem. I believe Mr & Mrs Snail were simply escorted off a river they should not have been on, but another DBA member had his barge impounded until he could return with a properly certified helmsman. I would not think it worth the risk. They will accept Dutch, Belgian and French certificates for craft up to 25m, but you have to be reasonably fluent in Dutch or French - we did used to examine for the French certificate (in English) but you had to have a boat ≥20m for the practical so you fall through that hole as well.

 

The DBA has been trying to get the German authorities to change their mind on this for several years now, but it is extremely unlikely that they will. The only people affected really are those relying on an ICC, and Brexit would seem to wipe out whatever faint hope there might have been.

 

There's good cruising in the other countries though

 

Thanks for the info. As you say there is plenty to explore outside Germany.

[Dav and Pen]

I to am confused by the 15m "rule" as the owner of a 22m barge for 15 years on the continent I have come across some moorings that have very small finger pontoons but can honestly say that we have never had a serious problem mooring. The smaller French canals are generally in a poor state of maintenance and it's rare to get into the bank to moor but above locks usually good. The other plus point is that they close at night generally around seven so no passing craft to pull the pins out.

The regulations that have come in for over 20m boats are really not any more onerous than when the original BSC came originally for hire boats and houseboats and sensible surveyors reasoned that old boats couldn't always meet the requirements to the letter.

We were never made to cut a doorway between the back cabin and engine hole on our Northwich and Woolwich Camping boats although strictly there should have been one.

There's plenty to keep you busy on the smaller waterways (38m locks) and it may be worth looking at the extra cost of being put in at Simon Evans yard at Migennes. Shop around to see if it's possible to get a back load to France. We took our 50ft NB to Ireland as a back load for an Irish hauler.

It's a different world but a great one for boating.

[blackrose]

See post 21

 

I'd already seen your post. I still think it's relevant even though you find it tiresome.

[Guest]

I'd already seen your post. I still think it's relevant even though you find it tiresome.

I'm not sure tiresome is the correct word TBH Mike.

[system 4-50]

If this government sets the terms back far enough, does that mean we can take our narrow boats across for a bit of pillaging? It seems only fair since they came across to us & did it in their long boats.