Announcement - Staff Vacancies

[Murflynn]

 

Totally agree - If Dan were to say :

 

"As forum owner I am happy with the way the forum is run and we will not be making any changes", or, "I accept that Forums evolve and we need to make changes to meet todays 'needs' and that will happen progressively ........"

 

Then those that wish to 'move on' can do so, and those that want to 'stay' can do so. It won't just be a case of 'lets wait just another week to see if anything happens'

 

Its not difficult.

well said

[alan_fincher]

Give the man a break!

This is coming across like Dan can't do anything right in the eyes of some forum members. That's not exactly supportive.

 

And neither is it going to help make happen what they want to happen - all it does is contribute towards making the place somewhere nobody will want to be a member of nor to moderate as it just churns out more ill feeling. It also adds to the barrage of examples that some members, despite protesting that the forum would be better off if it was less heavily moderated, don't have the self-control or diplomacy to be able to let that happen.

 

Please can we try and show some support to Dan and the team instead? You never know, you might find positive things happen when they're not having to deal with constant and repetitive criticism.

(Quick reminder: you do know they do this in their spare time around full time jobs, home commitments, partners, families, hobbies, friends and the like? This isn't a scheduled job with deadlines that puts food on the table. It's just a free to use website about canals run by well meaning, generous people)

^^^^^^^^^

Exactly this

 

i actually think Dan and the team (existing or new) have a lot to pull off if things are going to get better, but i fail to see what is achieved by lambasting everything he says or does.

 

He has made it clear that he is trying to stay on top of things whilst flying elsewhere on business. i seriously wonder if any of us who had that kind of day job in the past would have fared any better.

 

Also those who have questioned the choice of the moderators who got added earlier in the year seem to have seriously forgotten the unpleasant state of the forum at the time. Yes there is plenty that needs answering about recent months, but we should not forget the background to those recent months.

 

To blame the appointment of recent mods for the departure of longer standing one seems perverse in the extreme, particularly as at least one has explained their departure, which seems to be because of behaviour of other ordinary members, not other moderators.

[Victor Vectis]

 

...make sure your criticism is constructive, clear and within the forum rules.

Indubitably.

Am I the only person who has noticed a slow but perceptible change in the forum? <snip>

Well said that man too.

[Dave_P]

 

...make sure your criticism is constructive, clear and within the forum rules.

fair enough. Plenty of the moaning posts haven't been constructive, or more to the point, they were constructive the first time round, but ceased to be constructive after endless repetition.

[carlt]

Plenty of the moaning posts haven't been constructive, or more to the point, they were constructive the first time round, but ceased to be constructive after endless repetition.

 

Just like plenty of the moaners who wish to drown out the legitimate concerns and criticisms of the forum with their endlessly repetitive "If you don't like it, clear off." posts then...

[Murflynn]

^^^^^^^^^

Exactly this

 

i actually think Dan and the team (existing or new) have a lot to pull off if things are going to get better, but i fail to see what is achieved by lambasting everything he says or does.

 

He has made it clear that he is trying to stay on top of things whilst flying elsewhere on business. i seriously wonder if any of us who had that kind of day job in the past would have fared any better.

 

Also those who have questioned the choice of the moderators who got added earlier in the year seem to have seriously forgotten the unpleasant state of the forum at the time. Yes there is plenty that needs answering about recent months, but we should not forget the background to those recent months.

 

To blame the appointment of recent mods for the departure of longer standing one seems perverse in the extreme, particularly as at least one has explained their departure, which seems to be because of behaviour of other ordinary members, not other moderators.

which begs the question - if the forum owner is going to set certain standards to protect his CV and public persona, then he should be available most of the time to control and fix things.

 

there are 2 alternative approaches :

- pass the ownership on to someone who has the time and inclination to run a friendly, chatty, all-inclusive forum with minimal moderation (like what it used to be) including a current affairs section

- forget your standards and let the forum run as it used to, without being overly concerned that any issues that arise on the forum may be negative points on your CV.

 

as I've asked before - what is the motivation for Dan to own the forum? If it is vanity or CV building then perhaps it is time for him to move on, as Jon did before him.

[Barry]

which begs the question - if the forum owner is going to set certain standards to protect his CV and public persona, then he should be available most of the time to control and fix things.

 

there are 2 alternative approaches :

- pass the ownership on to someone who has the time and inclination to run a friendly, chatty, all-inclusive forum with minimal moderation (like what it used to be) including a current affairs section

- forget your standards and let the forum run as it used to, without being overly concerned that any issues that arise on the forum may be negative points on your CV.

 

as I've asked before - what is the motivation for Dan to own the forum? If it is vanity or CV building then perhaps it is time for him to move on, as Jon did before him.

 

There is a third option of course, and that is that Daniel could have a deputy, a senior mod/team leader who takes the responsibility for daily running from him, leaving him free to get on with his busy life and only making executive decisions as the owner

 

I do feel that Daniel's motivation for owning the forum is irrelevent, private, and actually none of anybody's business but his.

 

The fact is that it is his, he owns it, and he will run it as he wants - not like you want....and quite rightly so

Edited November 2, 2016 by Barry

[Dave_P]

 

Just like plenty of the moaners who wish to drown out the legitimate concerns and criticisms of the forum with their endlessly repetitive "If you don't like it, clear off." posts then...

I agree totally. I don't think I've seen many posts telling people to clear off though.

[carlt]

I agree totally. I don't think I've seen many posts telling people to clear off though.

 

There has been no shortage of words to that effect being used.

 

I'm also a bit tired of those who disagree with the calls for a change portraying themselves as "nice" and those who want a lighter touch as "horrible" ironically coming across as exactly the sort of folk they claim to want rid of.

[Jamboat]

Give the man a break!

This is coming across like Dan can't do anything right in the eyes of some forum members. That's not exactly supportive.

And neither is it going to help make happen what they want to happen - all it does is contribute towards making the place somewhere nobody will want to be a member of nor to moderate as it just churns out more ill feeling. It also adds to the barrage of examples that some members, despite protesting that the forum would be better off if it was less heavily moderated, don't have the self-control or diplomacy to be able to let that happen.

Please can we try and show some support to Dan and the team instead? You never know, you might find positive things happen when they're not having to deal with constant and repetitive criticism.

(Quick reminder: you do know they do this in their spare time around full time jobs, home commitments, partners, families, hobbies, friends and the like? This isn't a scheduled job with deadlines that puts food on the table. It's just a free to use website about canals run by well meaning, generous people)

Absolutely Blue String, I like this forum, find it useful for technical & mechanical stuff, usually someone will help out with a query, it's entertaining , Miss Max's thread being a good example- I don't want to get involved in nitpicking or heavy debate, for those that do, fine, I just keep out of it, but if this forum isn't to your taste why are you still here?

I think the mods & Dan have a thankless task trying to keep things on an even keel, & I for one say thank you to them for their efforts.

[carlt]

but if this forum isn't to your taste why are you still here?

 

because it used to be to my taste and if it can change for the worse (by people complaining and criticising) then I believe it can be changed back to the brilliant website it once was (by complaining and criticising).

I agree totally. I don't think I've seen many posts telling people to clear off though.

 

.... if this forum isn't to your taste why are you still here?

 

I honestly did not set that up.

[Barry]

 

because it used to be to my taste and if it can change for the worse (by people complaining and criticising) then I believe it can be changed back to the brilliant website it once was (by complaining and criticising).

 

Constructively, clearly, and within the forum rules

[carlt]

 

Constructively, clearly, and within the forum rules

Of course...but I'd hate to be accused of repeating myself.

[Barry]

No worries. I'll do it for you

[DHutch]

Sorry for the delay in reply, while not an excuse all will wear, my time working on the forum must fit around a busy work and personal life. While I would love a second me to be able to dedicate a stack more time to the cause channel four's humans series still sci-fi if well disguised.

 

 

 

I have posted many posts on the topic of requesting change, clearer explanation of moderator action being one of the key points, and the staff will join the current staff in working to effect this, and various factor have I am quite happy to say caused some less then ideal moderating, and perhaps I would have done well to mention that in the opening post.

 

In terms of the number we wish to add, it will be a staged process, but I am looking to have a moderator team of 6-8 in total, excluding admin/technical staff, so my hope is to add two new members reasonably quickly and perhaps 1 or two more after that.

 

That said, with one moderator as he finds himself with less free time due to spending much of the summer on his boat, and another leaving not because of the issues leading up to the recent issues raised about moderation of the site, but because of various members ways of going about raising the issue, I would say this is indeed a reasonably simple case of replacing moderators who are leaving rather than anything more untoward.

 

 

I am glad some members have seen small changes, there will not be sudden changes, and many will go unseen, it do not see this as a bad thing. Particularly as some of the comments have been that there should be less moderation, its hard to show this tangibly other than through its absence! Forums do evolve and change always, and like any other site, canalworld changes all the time, include ups and downs. This is just that, as was the time when a number of disruptive members where removed from the site.

 

 

 

We have asked a number of members to give the staff team some time in effect the requested changes, and I would extend that to the wider membership. Effecting change takes times, particularly all staff along with myself are volunteers and fitting the work in around their every day lives.

Moderating can be rewarding, with a significant amount of support coming in from members via PM or occasional public posts, but at times it cal also be seriously thankless. Given a thought to how you would fit running a forum into your life, along side a full time job and a host of other commitments.

 

I own the site willingly, and because I want to continue as it has done for many years, but it also a commitment and work load. I have never done it for my own vanity or self important and my cv does not need more on it, I run it for the members because I enjoy being a member my self and wanted and was able to put back into the site, first as a moderator and then as an admin and later own when the founder Jon was no longer able to find the time he wished to dedicate to the site having started a new family.

 

My time is less available than was the case a few years ago, and a senior or lead moderator is a role I would like to fill as I have said elsewhere and now added to the opening post, and in fact is something I have been looking to for around a year, however as I have said this is likely to be in the form of a promotion from within the moderator team.

 

 

Watch this space, and if you would like to be part of the staff team, i would be very interested in hearing from you along with the others who have already com forward.

 

Thanks

 

 

Daniel

Site Owner

[Geo]

Daniel,

As someone who has owned and run a forum for several years that was over twice the size of this one may I make the following comments?

 

A moderator team of 6-8 I feel is a lot too small. It requires each moderator to be on duty every day to get full coverage and does not allow for absences because people work, have families, have boats to run etc. I think the maximum time the site should be asking moderators to work is two hours a day and that during that time they moderate and do not engage in personal posting. Ideally there needs to be two moderators on duty at any one time to back up each other in making the tricky decisions.

 

Working on the basis that each moderator sensibly in the long term will give say four shifts a week, they do have a life, and the forum ideally needs to be covered from 10am to midnight. That is seven two hour shifts or at two moderators a shift 14 moderators. Then add for times when people are away holidays, illness, family problems etc I feel that adding another four moderators would not be unreasonable. Thus a total of 18 moderators.

 

Moderators who have to work too long and too often quickly get burnt out, become stressed make wrong decisions, and the end result is the situation that has happened on this site previously and is happening now, uproar from the users about poor and unfair moderation. This is caused by stressed burnt out moderators who are terse with users and chasing to catch up with their tails and they never do catch up and go off shift feeling dissatisfied and unhappy.

 

I would suggest that unless the moderator team is of the order very close to 18, then within a short time this forum will be back to where it is with uproar from the users over poor and unfair moderating with stressed and unhappy moderators seeing problems, disruptive posters etc around every corner. All the present effort will be wasted.

 

I suggest the site needs to be looking for a total of 18 moderators, that is ignoring the existing admin and technical staff.

 

Please do not take offence this is offered as an attempt to secure the long term future of this forum.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Geo

[Barry]

Daniel,

As someone who has owned and run a forum for several years that was over twice the size of this one may I make the following comments?

 

<snip>

 

I suggest the site needs to be looking for a total of 18 moderators, that is ignoring the existing admin and technical staff.

 

Please do not take offence this is offered as an attempt to secure the long term future of this forum.

 

Wise words - I like to see a bit of constructive criticism

 

Greenie

Edited November 3, 2016 by Barry

[carlt]

 

 

I suggest the site needs to be looking for a total of 18 moderators, that is ignoring the existing admin and technical staff.

 

Please do not take offence this is offered as an attempt to secure the long term future of this forum.

Ideally yes but in the past Daniel has been struggling to get the full compliment of 6-8 moderators.

 

If the forum is largely self-moderated with mods relying on the report system to catch up on any problems, I see no reason why there has to be a constant mod presence.

 

People are aware of how the forum degenerated in the Spring and I don't think anyone wants that to happen again, nor do they want moderation with an iron fist as that has harmed the forum even more.

[mayalld]

Sorry for the delay in reply, while not an excuse all will wear, my time working on the forum must fit around a busy work and personal life. While I would love a second me to be able to dedicate a stack more time to the cause channel four's humans series still sci-fi if well disguised.

 

 

 

I have posted many posts on the topic of requesting change, clearer explanation of moderator action being one of the key points, and the staff will join the current staff in working to effect this, and various factor have I am quite happy to say caused some less then ideal moderating, and perhaps I would have done well to mention that in the opening post.

 

In terms of the number we wish to add, it will be a staged process, but I am looking to have a moderator team of 6-8 in total, excluding admin/technical staff, so my hope is to add two new members reasonably quickly and perhaps 1 or two more after that.

 

That said, with one moderator as he finds himself with less free time due to spending much of the summer on his boat, and another leaving not because of the issues leading up to the recent issues raised about moderation of the site, but because of various members ways of going about raising the issue, I would say this is indeed a reasonably simple case of replacing moderators who are leaving rather than anything more untoward.

 

 

I am glad some members have seen small changes, there will not be sudden changes, and many will go unseen, it do not see this as a bad thing. Particularly as some of the comments have been that there should be less moderation, its hard to show this tangibly other than through its absence! Forums do evolve and change always, and like any other site, canalworld changes all the time, include ups and downs. This is just that, as was the time when a number of disruptive members where removed from the site.

 

 

 

We have asked a number of members to give the staff team some time in effect the requested changes, and I would extend that to the wider membership. Effecting change takes times, particularly all staff along with myself are volunteers and fitting the work in around their every day lives.

Moderating can be rewarding, with a significant amount of support coming in from members via PM or occasional public posts, but at times it cal also be seriously thankless. Given a thought to how you would fit running a forum into your life, along side a full time job and a host of other commitments.

 

I own the site willingly, and because I want to continue as it has done for many years, but it also a commitment and work load. I have never done it for my own vanity or self important and my cv does not need more on it, I run it for the members because I enjoy being a member my self and wanted and was able to put back into the site, first as a moderator and then as an admin and later own when the founder Jon was no longer able to find the time he wished to dedicate to the site having started a new family.

 

My time is less available than was the case a few years ago, and a senior or lead moderator is a role I would like to fill as I have said elsewhere and now added to the opening post, and in fact is something I have been looking to for around a year, however as I have said this is likely to be in the form of a promotion from within the moderator team.

 

 

Watch this space, and if you would like to be part of the staff team, i would be very interested in hearing from you along with the others who have already com forward.

 

Thanks

 

 

Daniel

Site Owner

 

Well, let me be the one to break the awkward silence!

 

So, after days of nothing, and repeated calls from others to "wait", because Daniel has other things on and will come up with a way forward, the statement that has been awaited with such expectation is with us, and I cannot say that I am overwhelmed, or that I am filled with any sense of "well that was worth waiting for".

 

If I may précis what Dan has told us;

 

• There may have been some "less than ideal" moderating.
  • But that is nobody's fault, just "various factors".
• Moderators will be recruited to replace those who have left
  • Perhaps the odd extra, but no big change
  • We are going to pretend that this is just normal "churn"
• There may be some small changes
  • But you probably won't notice them, because they are so small
  • No acknowledgement that there is a need for a change of direction
• Some members have left
  • But that is just what happens, and it isn't a problem.
• He has a busy life, and others would have trouble fitting it in to their lives, so we shouldn't criticise.

 

Sorry to be blunt here, but you are in serious denial about the extent to which you and the team got it wrong. That isn't intended as a harsh criticism.

 

It isn't to say that you or the mods are bad people, but it does recognise that you are all doing this in your spare time, and that you aren't trained for the job.

 

I feel sure that you and the mods are trying your best, despite being faced with events that you were ill prepared to deal with.

 

You (collectively) got it wrong. That isn't a huge deal. You can say "we are amateurs, and we got it wrong, we have learned from it, and we are going to apply what we have learned", and people will accept that. However, if there is a sense of denial, and an unwillingness to learn then the fact that the moderators are nice people doing this out of the goodness of their hearts cannot protect them from criticism.

 

"I am a volunteer" must never be a "get out of jail card" that means that the skill with which a job is done cannot be questions (vide the volunteer who nearly sank Alan's boat).

 

So, where next?

 

As I have been critical (but constructive I hope), let me put my cards on the table.

 

I have (several days ago) sent Dan a message offering my services as a mod. Not in the expectation that he will accept, because I suspect that I am too independent minded, and that Dan would have concerns that I would push hard for reforms that he may not want.

 

Whilst I don't expect to be accepted, I haven't offered as a gesture in the hope of rejection, to bolster my ability to criticise. If Dan decides to take a bold step and takes me on, I will most certainly do the job to the best of my ability, and will fully expect to be held to account just as I hold others to account.

 

Whether Dan does take the bold move of appointing me or not, I do hope that he will make some bold moves in appointing mods. I feel that there is a need to move away from just appointing people who are undoubtedly nice people to also appoint people who are more robust (without being offensive). At the risk of being told to get a room, I do hope that Carl is appointed, he would be great for the forum

[Geo]

Ideally yes but in the past Daniel has been struggling to get the full compliment of 6-8 moderators.

 

If the forum is largely self-moderated with mods relying on the report system to catch up on any problems, I see no reason why there has to be a constant mod presence.

 

People are aware of how the forum degenerated in the Spring and I don't think anyone wants that to happen again, nor do they want moderation with an iron fist as that has harmed the forum even more.

 

From experience I am afraid I have to disagree with you. The route you imply/suggest leads to moderators chasing their tails and dissatisfaction followed quickly by burn out; thus the cycle starts again.

[carlt]

 

From experience I am afraid I have to disagree with you. The route you imply/suggest leads to moderators chasing their tails and dissatisfaction followed quickly by burn out; thus the cycle starts again.

Well from experience I have seen it work.

 

It worked for many years on this site, for example...It breaking down only when a confluence of exceptional events led to some controversial discussions and some deliberate (and so far successful) attempts to sabotage the site.

 

Besides, if Daniel can't recruit 18 suitable moderators then it will have to work or the forum will die.

 

There shouldn't actually be that many problems if folk are shown respect, treated like grown ups and allowed to self moderate.

[Geo]

Well from experience I have seen it work.

 

It worked for many years on this site, for example...It breaking down only when a confluence of exceptional events led to some controversial discussions and some deliberate (and so far successful) attempts to sabotage the site.

 

Besides, if Daniel can't recruit 18 suitable moderators then it will have to work or the forum will die.

 

There shouldn't actually be that many problems if folk are shown respect, treated like grown ups and allowed to self moderate.

 

The site has not be able to successfully self moderate in the recent past and that is where the problems started. Self moderation on a site like this is a myth, there are too many different interests, too many different vastly differing personalities.

 

If the site is as large as is suggested I would suspect that finding 18 mods would not be a problem. Problem is training them.

 

If the site does not find the numbers then the cycle has already started and it will not be long before the problems and uproar start again.

 

B TW I note you say have "seen it work" that means you have not made it work

Edited November 3, 2016 by Geo

[Paul C]

Well, I see it as a "mildly positive" thing only in that we now know there won't be massive changes in the weeks/months ahead, just tiny tweaks here and there and the replacement of worn out mods.

[carlt]

 

 

 

B TW I note you say have "seen it work" that means you have not made it work

I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.

 

No I was not responsible for making it work but I witnessed it (and it still is working) on a forum very much like this one (One special interest shared by folk from all walks of life) with many more active members than this and 6 mods.

 

As I said, the ideal would be to have more mods but I prefer to be optimistic than predict doom and gloom if Daniel fails to recruit your golden number.

 

It seems that some folk want the forum to fail and can't wait to cast their dire prophesy.

[Geo]

I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.

 

No I was not responsible for making it work but I witnessed it (and it still is working) on a forum very much like this one (One special interest shared by folk from all walks of life) with many more active members than this and 6 mods.

 

As I said, the ideal would be to have more mods but I prefer to be optimistic than predict doom and gloom if Daniel fails to recruit your golden number.

 

It seems that some folk want the forum to fail and can't wait to cast their dire prophesy.

 

Well from your answer you certainly understood what it meant.

 

I have no wish for this forum to fail, I want to see it resume it growth, a growth that has apparently stopped and may even be reversing.

 

The site you reference is a single special interest site. CWDF is not a single interest site. It is a site with a very wide range of interests loosely joined by a core interest of canal boats

 

It seem to me that your self moderation includes being able to attack the messenger, albeit by implication