Jump to content

Yorkshire


ramblin

Featured Posts

We, so far,have received one notice from Enforcement. Suggesting we are potentially going to overstay. What's that all about?

Well quite! This is like the Phillip K Dick novel (and Tom Cruise film), Minority Report. It seems CRT have introduced a pre-crime division.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We, so far,have received one notice from Enforcement. Suggesting we are potentially going to overstay. What's that all about?

 

 

I received a weird letter from CRT back in the summer. I've been CCing on the K&A with a mooring in Cropredy. They sent me a letter asking me if I had a home mooring and so, where. Odd I thought, given my licence application always states my home mooring.

 

The letter was very specific and mildly threatening, saying a phone call or email response was not acceptable, I MUST make a declaration in writing, sign it, and return it to CRT. Rather than waste my time making an issue of it, I did as instructed.

 

I still wonder what that was all about, but perhaps I was cruising in a similar manner to Martyn and was seen as a 'potential overstayer'.

 

Aren't we all?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

I received a weird letter from CRT back in the summer. I've been CCing on the K&A with a mooring in Cropredy. They sent me a letter asking me if I had a home mooring and so, where. Odd I thought, given my licence application always states my home mooring.

 

The letter was very specific and mildly threatening, saying a phone call or email response was not acceptable, I MUST make a declaration in writing, sign it, and return it to CRT. Rather than waste my time making an issue of it, I did as instructed.

 

I still wonder what that was all about, but perhaps I was cruising in a similar manner to Martyn and was seen as a 'potential overstayer'.

 

Aren't we all?

Yet another example of unsettling CRT behaviour towards boaters. It does seem they have a big problem with sharing information internally. For example, my license expires at the end of October. I hadn't had a reminder. I rang them and they still had me listed at my old mooring which I gave up to take a new mooring in May. They were both CRT moorings. The licensing team clearly have no access to the records of the moorings team. If it's a non-CRT mooring it must be even worse. Mike - it looks like the enforcement team don't have access to those records either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

I'm very disappointed you say this. You seem like a thinking person but to say this suggests you have never checked what the law says.

 

Read it. It is perfectly clear unless you are determined to not understand.

 

Sorry i understand the law referring to navigation, "places", etc as somewhat subjective and got the impression from web reading that the license conds and CRT guidelines have perhaps changed over time or could change in the future. It would be great if this is incorrect as my concern is that the goal posts could shift.

 

This seems a sensitive topic, and the van analogy may be pertinent because there is no law preventing someone from living in a motor vehicle or forcing them to move a certain distance if they do, however people that live this way keep moving and don't tend to stay anywhere potentially controversial for long because they know it will cause friction with other road/public space users. It's like they are sensible enough to know if they want peaceful life then it is necessary and there is no need for the law! Though if the roads started getting clogged up with smelly van dwellers then the law would probably respond, as was the case with the CJB in the 90's, though thankfully that law didn't revoke the right to sleep/live in a vehicle if you want to.

I'd love to see those costs. More to the point though, a perfectly livable boat can be had for 25k or less. Show me a 2/3 bed house for that price.

 

Just check out south leeds!

Edited by ramblin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Sorry i understand the law referring to navigation, "places", etc as somewhat subjective and got the impression from web reading that the license conds and CRT guidelines have perhaps changed over time or could change in the future. It would be great if this is incorrect as my concern is that the goal posts could shift.

 

 

The goal posts might shift.

 

The thing is that notwithstanding a few people who were pushing the definition of bona fide navigation beyond its limits by saying that they were going to navigate then coming up with all sorts of reasons to do no such thing, moving the goal posts won't matter.

 

If you are truly navigating for the sake of navigating, moving from place to place with no ties to any place, you will be well past the goal posts, or any other goal posts that may appear.

 

If your current pattern is JUST the right side of the goal posts then frankly you aren't engaged in bona fide navigation at all. It is simply that you are beyond some arbitrary minimum at which they aren't going to bother you this year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The goal posts might shift.

 

The thing is that notwithstanding a few people who were pushing the definition of bona fide navigation beyond its limits by saying that they were going to navigate then coming up with all sorts of reasons to do no such thing, moving the goal posts won't matter.

 

If you are truly navigating for the sake of navigating, moving from place to place with no ties to any place, you will be well past the goal posts, or any other goal posts that may appear.

 

If your current pattern is JUST the right side of the goal posts then frankly you aren't engaged in bona fide navigation at all. It is simply that you are beyond some arbitrary minimum at which they aren't going to bother you this year.

 

A funny thought: what if you ARE bona-fide navigating, up and down a small stretch of river in your dotage (perhaps because you really like the reach and the pub at each end of it)... you'd be stuffed and get your boat crushed sad.png

Edited by ramblin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

The goal posts might shift.

 

The thing is that notwithstanding a few people who were pushing the definition of bona fide navigation beyond its limits by saying that they were going to navigate then coming up with all sorts of reasons to do no such thing, moving the goal posts won't matter.

 

If you are truly navigating for the sake of navigating, moving from place to place with no ties to any place, you will be well past the goal posts, or any other goal posts that may appear.

 

If your current pattern is JUST the right side of the goal posts then frankly you aren't engaged in bona fide navigation at all. It is simply that you are beyond some arbitrary minimum at which they aren't going to bother you this year.

Sorry, but there's no way you can guarantee this. The right to cc could be removed altogether in the future. Although having said that, right now it seems more likely that CRT may just stop maintaining large swathes of the network. Not saying either of these is about to happen but predicting a guaranteed happy future is just a naive as predicting a terrible one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

A funny thought: what if you ARE bona-fide navigating, up and down a small stretch of river in your dotage (perhaps because you really like the reach and the pub at each end of it)... you'd be stuffed and get your boat crushed sad.png

Precisely. A judge's comments on a previous case alluded exactly to this and used the example of the Mersey Ferry which is clearly bona-fide navigating but would be refused a licence under CRT interpretation of the law. The law isn't interested in how far you are navigating, it's only interested in WHY you are navigating. It's a fairly stupid bit of legislation as it requires a degree of mind reading on the part of the navigation authority. As CRT aren't mind readers, they've adopted their own interpretation of the law which is that if you cover a range of 20-25 miles, you'll probably be left alone. This is clearly at odds with the legislation and it's therefore unsurprising that people are left confused. CRT making up the law to suit themselves has been a recurrent theme for the last few years. We had a lovely discussion recently about the removal of a commercial vessel from their waters in Liverpool, but the thread was locked for some reason.

 

Where are Nigel & Tony when you need them? Oh yes, I remember now...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is kind of bad news... if legal precedence can be used to undermine policy then things will almost certainly get harder for ccers in the future. It seems the balance is about right with the 25 mile thing as it stands. Though im sure if you were the old man engaged in a two pub-crawl then you'd be able to defend your position fairly well.

Edited by ramblin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is kind of bad news... if legal precedence can be used to undermine policy then things will almost certainly get harder for ccers in the future. It seems the balance is about right with the 25 mile thing as it stands. Though im sure if you were the old man engaged in a two pub-crawl then you'd be able to defend your position fairly well.

 

I am not sure he could.

 

It may be worth while you doing some more investigation into the legal requirements and the way they are enforced (if you are going to be 'marginal' in complying.

 

Just as a 'taster' of the way things work :

 

1) If you do not 'move enough' then C&RT revoke your licence as you have not undertaken to meet the requirements you signed up to when you applied for the licence.

 

2) Your boat is now on C&RT waters without a licence.

 

3) C&RT do not take you to court for 'not moving far enough', Oh-No, they 'take you to court' for being on their waters without a licence - you have no argument, you ARE on their waters without a licence because they revoked it.

 

You think this is an exaggeration ?

Research and check for yourself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is kind of bad news... if legal precedence can be used to undermine policy then things will almost certainly get harder for ccers in the future. It seems the balance is about right with the 25 mile thing as it stands. Though im sure if you were the old man engaged in a two pub-crawl then you'd be able to defend your position fairly well.

No. Going up and down between two pubs is not bona fide navigation. It's not like the mersey ferry. That connects two points which are separated by water, therefore navigating between them is bona fide. Going to the pub doesn't really meet the same criteria. You're welcome to try it, but I suspect you'd lose in court.

 

If you had a brewery at one pub and delivered the beer daily to the other pub by boat, you might get away with that

Edited by Dave_P
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't read the whole thread (sorry) but I'd like to echo what Dave_P says about the relative convenience of CCing up here. Loads of waterways to choose from and loads of little towns where you can moor up within walking distance of a train station. We gave up our home mooring (in Shipley) after a year because we found we (as leisure boaters, not liveaboards) were de facto CCing quite easily and quite naturally - leaving our boat moored in one of many towns along the L&L, A&C, C&H and Rochdale in between weekend and holiday cruises.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No. Going up and down between two pubs is not bona fide navigation. It's not like the mersey ferry. That connects two points which are separated by water, therefore navigating between them is bona fide. Going to the pub doesn't really meet the same criteria. You're welcome to try it, but I suspect you'd lose in court.

 

If you had a brewery at one pub and delivered the beer daily to the other pub by boat, you might get away with that

But then one would need a commercial licence?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...
On 28/10/2016 at 15:51, ramblin said:

Sure, I can imagine things would get pretty crazy on the cut with no regs and have no intent to take the pass but my fear is that the licence conditions are not clearly defined or enshrined in law. Presumably crt policy will to some extent adapt to the demand on the network, which must cast a shadow of doubt over the boating community.

 

Someone suggested to estimate time and cost then double it or something for fitouts so yup I think a month is optimistic! Will call a few builders and see what their storage arrangements are like.

 

Understood about the costs. In my case I'm going to relocate to yorks as housing is insane where I am. The options appear to be buying a small terrace in rough area or doing the nb thing. The latter sounds far more appealing and I think im compatible with a nomadic lifestyle so 90% sold :)

Once you opt out of bricks and mortar and in to sardine tins, you are taking a big financial risk long term.

Short term, you are making your life more complex. In a small house can,  if you choose, be  within walking distance of your schools/shops/roads/doctor/dentist. If it is cold and wet, you close the door, turn up the heating and switch the TV on. If it is too hot, you open the windows and have a nice long shower or pop in to local pool. Open the fridge and fill your glass with something really cool.

If you live in a boat, well its not quite so easy...................

 

Edited by LadyG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.