Middle Northwich Ice Boat Conversion Thread (Diverted from Fire Boat Livery Thread)

[alan_fincher]

Rather than taking over Pipistrelle's thread any longer, the image posted by Pete Harrisson has prompted me to move the any current discussion of the Middle Northwich ice boats to a new thread.

Pete wrote.....

The photograph below shows SEXTANT (sic) at either Atherstone on 21 May 1961 or Bulls Bridge in January 1964 - but I think the former. This photograph clearly shows the 'rocker bar' set below the top edge of the engine room bulkhead as per TYCHO, and the supports for the 'rocker bar' are also as per TYCHO with the exception of the front section which was removed by the time this photograph was taken.


photograph courtesy of Alan Elyard Brown collection and his Copyright

With my special interest in these boats, to me this is one of the most interesting photos I have seen in a long while, (which probably says a lot about me!).

Things I immediately notice are.....

1) The boat is lettered "Sextant" rather than "Sextans", as Pete says, but whilst I was aware of this, I have never before seen it photographed. Do we have any idea at what point the name change occurred.

2) The boat looks remarkably well presented for a maintenance boat - with things like the pigeon box intact.

3) The original Yarwoods cabin has survived at this point.

4) No obvious evidence I can see of it having had its water cooled engine swapped to an air cooled one, or at least no vents on top of cabin I can see. I can't see the location of the exhaust, presumably obscured by the pigeon box. Do we know if Wateways re-engined this boat?

5) No guards on hull side, consistent with the idea that baulks of timber were bolted on to widen the area of ice being broken.

6) Small detail, but it retains a towing hook, rather than a second dolly.

7) The counter looks very original, so when one sees a picture of one of these boats with a highly "modified" counter, it seems unlikely it is Sextans. (Sickle may well be on its 4th counter, based on available evidence).

7) Is it possible to say if an ice ram is still present? From its apparent proximity to the mud hopper in front, my feeling is that it is not.

8) Assuming none of the boats had the arrangements for the rocker bar raised or lowered at some point in their history, then I think any picture that shows one lower than the cabin top must be Sextans or Tycho, whereas any that shows one going to a raised plate above the cabin top must be Sickle or Theophilus.

9) The fact that the front of the rocker bar is removed is very interesting. There are distant pictures of either Sextans or Tycho being used for the filming of the British Transport Films production "Inland Waterways" in 1950, that show a boat with the front half of the rocker bar removed, apparently exactly as in this photo. It is obvious this boat was used as a filming platform to follow the pair that feature in the film, and almost certainly the frame has been removed to allow unfettered access for film crew and bulky cameras. I thought the previous theory was that the boat used was Tycho, but I can't remember why that was thought. I am now very tempted to think it was Sextans, and that the redundant frame simply stayed removed thereafter - hence what we maybe see in Alan Elyard Brown's photo over a decade later.

What do we reckon? If that is Sextans, then the ice ram had not been removed by this date.

EDIT: Having to change to link to page, as posting image directly is failing for some reason.

Science and Society Link 1

This is another shot of the film crew, at Slaughters this time I'm sure I have seen an image of them filming from the front of the boat, but I can't immediately find it in the collection I am taking these from.

Science and Society Link 2

Edited October 20, 2016 by alan_fincher

[alan_fincher]

Rather than taking over Pipistrelle's thread any longer, the image posted by Pete Harrisson has prompted me to move the any current discussion of the Middle Northwich ice boats to a new thread.

 

Pete wrote.....

 

 

With my special interest in these boats, to me this is one of the most interesting photos I have seen in a long while, (which probably says a lot about me!).

 

Things I immediately notice are.....

 

1) The boat is lettered "Sextant" rather than "Sextans", as Pete says, but whilst I was aware of this, I have never before seen it photographed. Do we have any idea at what point the name change occurred.

 

2) The boat looks remarkably well presented for a maintenance boat - with things like the pigeon box intact.

 

3) The original Yarwoods cabin has survived at this point.

 

4) No obvious evidence I can see of it having had its water cooled engine swapped to an air cooled one, or at least no vents on top of cabin I can see. I can't see the location of the exhaust, presumably obscured by the pigeon box. Do we know if Wateways re-engined this boat?

 

5) No guards on hull side, consistent with the idea that baulks of timber were bolted on to widen the area of ice being broken.

 

6) Small detail, but it retains a towing hook, rather than a second dolly.

 

7) The counter looks very original, so when one sees a picture of one of these boats with a highly "modified" counter, it seems unlikely it is Sextans. (Sickle may well be on its 4th counter, based on available evidence).

 

7) Is it possible to say if an ice ram is still present? From its apparent proximity to the mud hopper in front, my feeling is that it is not.

 

8) Assuming none of the boats had the arrangements for the rocker bar raised or lowered at some point in their history, then I think any picture that shows one lower than the cabin top must be Sextans or Tycho, whereas any that shows one going to a raised plate above the cabin top must be Sickle or Theophilus.

 

9) The fact that the front of the rocker bar is removed is very interesting. There are distant pictures of either Sextans or Tycho being used for the filming of the British Transport Films production "Inland Waterways" in 1950, that show a boat with the front half of the rocker bar removed, apparently exactly as in this photo. It is obvious this boat was used as a filming platform to follow the pair that feature in the film, and almost certainly the frame has been removed to allow unfettered access for film crew and bulky cameras. I thought the previous theory was that the boat used was Tycho, but I can't remember why that was thought. I am now very tempted to think it was Sextans, and that the redundant frame simply stayed removed thereafter - hence what we maybe see in Alan Elyard Brown's photo over a decade later.

 

What do we reckon? If that is Sextans, then the ice ram had not been removed by this date.

 

 

Image No. 10449919 | This is a Rights Managed image.

Inventory No.: 1996-7038

Source No.: 1996-7038

Credit © NRM/British Transport Films / Science & Society Picture Library -- All rights reserved.

 

This is another shot of the film crew, at Slaughters this time I'm sure I have seen an image of them filming from the front of the boat, but I can't immediately find it in the collection I am taking these from.

 

 

Image No. 10449925 | This is a Rights Managed image.

Inventory No.: 1996-7038

Source No.: 1996-7038

Credit © NRM/British Transport Films / Science & Society Picture Library -- All rights reserved.

[pete harrison]

4) No obvious evidence I can see of it having had its water cooled engine swapped to an air cooled one, or at least no vents on top of cabin I can see. I can't see the location of the exhaust, presumably obscured by the pigeon box. Do we know if Wateways re-engined this boat?

A.E. Brown maintained detailed diary's of his observations, and when he recorded SEXTANT on 21 May 1961 he stated it was fitted with a PD3.

 

'British Waterways' records list SEXTANT's last Russell Newbery DM2 serial number (current in 1956) and its Petter PD3 serial number, but there is no date for the PD3 being fitted. The PD3 serial number is consecutive with that fitted into TYCHO, so I would conclude that they were more than likely fitted at about the same time - 1958.

 

edit = The PD3 was removed from SEXTANT prior to it being tendered for sale in November 1964

Edited October 20, 2016 by pete harrison

[alan_fincher]

Found what I couldn't find earlier....

 

From Linky 1

 

 

From Linky 2

 

 

And although I don't think it shows the Middle Northwich, this one shows some of the detail of what you needed for the tunnel shots

 

Edited October 20, 2016 by alan_fincher

[alan_fincher]

A.E. Brown maintained detailed diary's of his observations, and when he recorded SEXTANT on 21 May 1961 he stated it was fitted with a PD3.

 

'British Waterways' records list SEXTANT's last Russell Newbery DM2 serial number (current in 1956) and its Petter PD3 serial number, but there is no date for the PD3 being fitted. The PD3 serial number is consecutive with that fitted into TYCHO, so I would conclude that they were more than likely fitted at about the same time - 1958.

 

edit = The PD3 was removed from SEXTANT prior to it being tendered for sale in November 1964

 

OK, so it is simply one of the cases where an air cooled engine doesn't show much changed hardware on the roof, I guess. Fairly obviously the pictures I am posting of the 1950s filming will be of a boat (whichever one it is!) with a water cooled engine, whereas your posted image of Sextant must have the PD3. (Probably just as well the PD3 wasn't still in it when it was a hire boat!)

[Laurence Hogg]

Found what I couldn't find earlier....

 

From Linky 1

 

 

From Linky 2

 

 

And although I don't think it shows the Middle Northwich, this one shows some of the detail of what you needed for the tunnel shots

 

The top & bottom pictures shows the filming of"Inland Waterways", the second in the series is miscaptioned as its the Walsall canal where the M6 no crosses.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Laurence Hogg

[X Alan W]

If brain fade is not to severe the PD3 was fitted late 58 early 59.

[Laurence Hogg]

Lord knows why this has been merged, not all fireboats were "middle Northwich" boats.

[alan_fincher]

Lord knows why this has been merged, not all fireboats were "middle Northwich" boats.

 

??????

 

Far from being merged, I have deliberately brought the Middle Northwich ice boat discussion aware from the fire boat discussion thread.

 

De-merged, is more like it!

[zenataomm]

Brill photos

[Derek R.]

Good finds Alan. Science picture library haven't got all their captions right. On page 4, image 10449898 is captioned as Ovaltine boats near Kings Langley. It's two L & L boats in Liverpool.

 

It is possible that the air cooling roof outlet may not have been fitted when the Petters were installed, but a while later. Near central exhaust (unless I'm wrong, and could be) is not the usual place for the DM2. I think they were more right hand side?

 

 

 

Dotted lines are welds. No idea what the ten inch hole would have been for.

 

 

[David Schweizer]

Lord knows why this has been merged, not all fireboats were "middle Northwich" boats.

 

Were any of them? I can think of three which I am confident were all "small Northwich" boats. Somewhere i have a list iof them given to me by the (then) owner of one of them, but I am sure Pete Harrison will have a complete list more readily acccessible.

Edited October 21, 2016 by David Schweizer

[pipistrelle]

I should so have better things to do, but I swear in the second of the series of photos Alan posted, I can see water from a water-cooled engine coming out the side of the boat. Also in the top photo of Sextans stationary, there's a patch of hull that looks a different colour, near the engine room doors, which would also suggest the engine is water-cooled and that part of the side is getting a wash.

[David Mack]

I should so have better things to do, but I swear in the second of the series of photos Alan posted, I can see water from a water-cooled engine coming out the side of the boat. Also in the top photo of Sextans stationary, there's a patch of hull that looks a different colour, near the engine room doors, which would also suggest the engine is water-cooled and that part of the side is getting a wash.

 

But which side would the outlet be on a Middle Northwich? Alan's other thread shows us that the inlet is on the port side on a Large Northwich, but would the outlet be the same? On a Large Woolwich inlet and outlet are both on the starboard side.

[archie57]

I should so have better things to do, but I swear in the second of the series of photos Alan posted, I can see water from a water-cooled engine coming out the side of the boat. Also in the top photo of Sextans stationary, there's a patch of hull that looks a different colour, near the engine room doors, which would also suggest the engine is water-cooled and that part of the side is getting a wash.

Regarding the Sextant/s photo tied up,since the given location was wrong, perhaps the date was also incorrect and it still has the RN fitted, which I am told discharged its cooling water on the side shown, opposite to a National?

[alan_fincher]

Regarding the Sextant/s photo tied up,since the given location was wrong, perhaps the date was also incorrect and it still has the RN fitted, which I am told discharged its cooling water on the side shown, opposite to a National?

 

I know I should know the actual location, and I'm sure it is probably on the Coventry, but it doesn't look like Atherstone. Can you identify it, please?

 

I genuinely can't recall what evidence "Sickle" has for former water cooling arrangements with the RN, although I think there is probably evidence of the inlets. I suspect there will be none for the outlet, as I think it has been completely re-plated where it was likely to have been, (whichever side).

 

"Flamingo" (ex "Letchworth") has something on the right hand side that may have been the outlet - i.e. on the opposite side to the inlets on the left.

Of course though, "Letchworth" was a Large Northwich, originally fitted with a National, where as "Sickle" was a Middle Northwich, originally fitted with an RN.

[Derek R.]

I should so have better things to do, but I swear in the second of the series of photos Alan posted, I can see water from a water-cooled engine coming out the side of the boat. Also in the top photo of Sextans stationary, there's a patch of hull that looks a different colour, near the engine room doors, which would also suggest the engine is water-cooled and that part of the side is getting a wash.

 

The image where they are pushing off from the bank.

I believe what looks like a stream of water is in fact a stalk of weed growing up from the bank. There are many of them, one just happens to be in the place where an outlet 'might' have been, though most motors with water cooled engines appear to have the outlet on the right hand side, with the intakes on the left. Is this true anyone? Or am I guessing?

[IanM]

"Flamingo" (ex "Letchworth") has something on the right hand side that may have been the outlet - i.e. on the opposite side to the inlets on the left.

Of course though, "Letchworth" was a Large Northwich, originally fitted with a National, where as "Sickle" was a Middle Northwich, originally fitted with an RN.

I think I spotted something on the right hand side of Nutfield too when I was looking the other day but as with Flamingo is a 'Large' rather than a 'Middle'.

[Derek R.]

I can't get into Photobucket just now (server not found?!), but on TYCHO there was and I suspect still is, an outlet just under the engine room gunnel on the RIGHT hand side of the boat. It's blanked off completely outside, but the inside still has a stub of pipe seen in one of the engine room images. TYCHO was also fitted with a Russell Newbery DM2 when built.

[chris_r]

I can't get into Photobucket just now (server not found?!), but on TYCHO there was and I suspect still is, an outlet just under the engine room gunnel on the RIGHT hand side of the boat. It's blanked off completely outside, but the inside still has a stub of pipe seen in one of the engine room images. TYCHO was also fitted with a Russell Newbery DM2 when built.

I am putting THEOPHILUS back to (near) original condition and both the seacock inlets are still in place and on the port side of the engine hole. I have a RN to put back in which is how she was delvered to GUCCCo

[archie57]

 

I know I should know the actual location, and I'm sure it is probably on the Coventry, but it doesn't look like Atherstone. Can you identify it, please?

 

I genuinely can't recall what evidence "Sickle" has for former water cooling arrangements with the RN, although I think there is probably evidence of the inlets. I suspect there will be none for the outlet, as I think it has been completely re-plated where it was likely to have been, (whichever side).

 

"Flamingo" (ex "Letchworth") has something on the right hand side that may have been the outlet - i.e. on the opposite side to the inlets on the left.

Of course though, "Letchworth" was a Large Northwich, originally fitted with a National, where as "Sickle" was a Middle Northwich, originally fitted with an RN.

Bulls Head bridge Polesworth, tied up there because of the "company's" houses alongside (since sold off)

Edited October 21, 2016 by archie57

[James Owen]

The cooling water outlet locations were originally located on the stbd side gunwale angle, be it suppied with a National or RN.

 

However the bilge pump outlets were defined by the type of engine, or rather the pump arrangements for each, which is why some are on the left, some right.

 

On a National the pumps are located to the aftwards stbd side so both outlets were that same side, a boat fitted with a RN had an outlet to each side as the pumps are positioned at the front of the engine.

 

The inlets are on the port side for both setups.

Edited October 21, 2016 by James Owen

[Derek R.]

Just to quantify my last re: TYCHO outlet.

Starboard (right hand) side of engine'ole looking forward. The old outlet can be seen just under the gunnel:

 

 

The extended bolt head just below it, is a remnant of the fixing of external timber baulks to widen a broken channel when ice breaking. Can't have been much in the way of back cabin woodwork as an Ice breaker, or Ice boat, as some of these were behind paneling existing from the 1980's on.