WWII fireboat livery colours?

[Ronaldo47]

When I first got interested in photography, circa 1960, I read all the books on the subject in my school and local public libraries. Most had been published in the early 1950's, probably as revisions of pre-war editions, and pretty well all started with a discussion of the different types of film. I vividly remember one in the school library that had a frontispiece with four identical views of a flower and fruit arrangement which included the aforementioned bowl of daffodils and some red apples and tomatoes. One was on colour, one in "Ordinary" film, one in Ortho, and one in Pan. It really brought home the differences in colour rendering of the different film types. Probably of practical use at the time, as I understand that many keen amateurs were still using plate cameras (for which sheet film adaptors were readily available) in the immediate post-war period when both Ordinary and Ortho sheet films and plates were still readily available.

 

These days, few people seem to be aware of the different properties of the old black and white films, which is why I thought it might be useful to mention it.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Ronaldo47

[Ronaldo47]

Edited August 14, 2020 by Ronaldo47
Remove duplicate image

[Ronaldo47]

These two photos from the book "British Railway Carriages of the 20th Century, Volume 1" by David Jenkinson, clearly show the very different ways that the same livery is rendered by Ortho and Pan films.

 

I think that, as well as cost, ortho continued to be widely used in the days when plate cameras were still in widespread use, because ortho films could be developed in a dish "by inspection" by using a red safelight. This allowed over-or under- exposed negatives to be allowed for by providing  shorter or longer development times. Pan had to be developed in total darkness, so such compensation was not possible. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Ronaldo47
Typos

[Athy]

This was always an interesting thread and it's good to see it revived. Do we know what colour scheme Pipistrelle finally chose for her boat?  

 

I remember a boat called 'Pipistrelle', with a young lady occupant, mooring near us at the Cropredy Festival one year. I wonder if that's the same person as 'Clypeus's owner.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Athy

[matty40s]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

This was always an interesting thread and it's good to see it revived. Do we know what colour scheme Pipistrelle finally chose for her boat?  

 

I remember a boat called 'Pipistrelle', with a young lady occupant, mooring near us at the Cropredy Festival one year. I wonder if that's the same person as 'Clypeus's owner.

Yes

[Ronaldo47]

The accomanying scan is a better example of how non-panchromatic films rendered coloured objects. The scan is a composite of pictures from "Hornby Dublo Trains" by Michael Foster, 1984 edition,  and shows black and white photos of tank wagons that must date from 1939, next to colour photos of their essentially identical post-war equivalents. The "Esso" tanker shows typical Ortho ( or possibly "Ordinary" in view of the yellow) rendition really well, the red horizonal stripe being black, the dark blue "ESSO" name being white, and the bright yellow tank body being dull grey.  The red "Royal Daylight" tank is black, and the green "Power" tank a grey shade similar to the yellow of the Esso tank, athough in black and white there is little difference between the tank colours of all three. 

 

I would say that the  black and white images must have had some of their lettering retouched in white to make them visible. As photographed, their colours would have made them black and almost indistinguishable from their surroundings on the Ortho sheet film which, from other photos in the book,  Hornby were clearly still using in the 1950's.

Edited September 20, 2020 by Ronaldo47
Typos, clarification

[ditchcrawler]

When I was an apprentice or vans were sponsored by Ferranti the TV company, but you had to have their name in this dirty orange colour in the right font and the right size etc. We had a new van, had it sign written and photographed in Black and white. There was no trace of Ferranti on the blue van. We had to have a colour photo take to send them. This was 1965 ish when most photos were still monochrome 

 

 

[Ronaldo47]

Interesting. I believe that Ortho films were only available in sheet film by 1965, but even today Panchromatic films are overly-sensitive to blue, and to get the best approximation to correct tones it was recommended to use a yellow-green filter. I managed to find one that fitted my camera in a camera shop's bargain box, and it certainly allowed clouds to be distinguished from blue sky. Without it, clouds and sky blended into a featureless white area unless you did some selective shading  in the darkroom when making enlargements.  Kodak used to do a range of "Wratten" coloured filters for use with black and white films to deal with the sort of problem you describe. Of course with film you wouldn't know there was a problem until after the film was developed. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by Ronaldo47