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Help! Liveaboard boater Victron Multiplus Phoenix crisis


svetlovska

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I have no technical expertise whatsoever, so please be gentle with me! I'm attaching pictures of this in case it helps. I am a newbie liveaboard narrowboater in a marina in Milton Keynes. It's a great boat but for some reason the previous owners loved their shore power, so although I have 12v lights and pumps, the fridge, tv etc are all 240v. Worse, I recently discovered that the Morso Squirrel stove back boiler also relies on 240v for it's pump. No 240v = no heating as I can't operate the stove without the pump running. For the last three months my Victron Phoenix Multiplus 12/3000/120 unit has been left switched to 'on' and happily showing 'Mains' and 'Float' lights on the left 'Charger' side of the front panel, and 'inverter' only away from the dock, as you'd expect.

 

Yesterday, something tripped out the breaker on the power post my boat plugs into, and the breaker in the main shore power switch box (? - it's labelled 'Mains' and looks like a domestic fuse box, see attached.) I was not running anything on mains at the time.

 

The 'mains' box has a green light labelled 'Mains On' up top, and inside the fuse panel, red and green Lights, and breakers labelled Power In, Power Out and Immersion heater. Labels inside the box say : 'Red on reverse polarity' and 'Green mains on'. My recollection from earlier days when everything was working fine was that the red light was usually on. I assume that flipping the breakers up is turning them on? As is the case for the power post I connect to.

 

The Victron panel is split between Charger and Inverter sides. In normal operation, I leave the central switch to 'on', and the Charger side shows Mains On and Float. In this state, all the 240v sockets are live, pulling power from the shore. The Inverter side only comes on when I disconnect shore power to cruise, as you'd expect.

 

On resetting the post breaker, I discovered that as soon as I attempted to also reset the breaker, the Victron flipped from the 'On' setting, where it usually displayed mains in and 'float', to 'Inverter' with no signs of life from the 'Charger' side of the Victron front panel, and the post breaker tripped again.

 

Here's the thing: if I switch mains power to the boat off using the 'Power Out' breaker in my mains box, the Victron shows mains input and starts charging as normal (but there is obviously no power to my 240v sockets.)

 

If I switch the Power Out breaker on, it immediately trips the shore post breaker, and mains power shuts off at the mains box (judging from the light going out up top). Then the inverter kicks in, and all my 240v sockets work, but are doing so obviously by pulling power from the battery bank to do it, which, worse, are receiving no top up charge, so this is not sustainable.

 

My 12v gear (lights, pumps etc) are unaffected by any of this, and continue to work in either state.

 

From this I deduce it is something to do with the automatic switching from mains to battery power by the Victron, or between the mains box and the Victron, caused when I attempt to supply mains power to the boat.

 

Do you have any suggestions, or a contact for a service engineer in the Milton Keynes I can pay to resolve the issue?

 

As I live on the boat and can't operate my fridge or my heating without mains power, this is quite urgent.

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For someone who says they have no technical expertise, your description of what happens is very clear and logical!

 

Should be a good start to help find the problem.

 

Looking at your "Power In" and "Power Out" breakers, they are both RCBOs which means they trip on detecting either a current overload or an earth leakage.

 

If the system seems to work normally from shore power with the Power Out RCBO switched off but things trip as soon as it is reset, it suggests to me that there is an earth leakage problem downstream of this RCBO.

 

This probably means that some appliance you have plugged in somewhere has developed an earth fault. Kettles can do this quite easily and it could be just that water has spilt into its internals!. Hopefully it isn't going to be a boat cabling fault but water in the wrong part of that could also cause tripping.

 

Try unplugging (not just switching off) everything in all your 240v sockets and seeing whether the Power Out RCBO will stay in. Then plug everything back in, one item at a time. Can you also isolate the Morso pump (with the stove cold!) for this test. Also make sure the immersion is completely isolated, not just by turning its breaker off but hopefully it has its own double pole isolator switch somewhere near it.

 

Richard

Edited by rjasmith
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Unplug everything on the boat including the fridge. Does it still do it?

 

If no, then plug everything in one at a time to find the faulty appliance.

 

If yes, then you would appear to have a wiring fault and as you don't have the expertise to find it you'll need an electrician.

 

Good luck,

Tony

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The 'mains' box has a green light labelled 'Mains On' up top, and inside the fuse panel, red and green Lights, and breakers labelled Power In, Power Out and Immersion heater. Labels inside the box say : 'Red on reverse polarity' and 'Green mains on'. My recollection from earlier days when everything was working fine was that the red light was usually on. I assume that flipping the breakers up is turning them on? As is the case for the power post I connect to.

 

This looks to be wrong and should be checked as well. I'm guessing you don't want to go poking around so would need to be checked by someone who knows what they are doing. (any Neighbours who can wave a multimeter?)

Edited by Robbo
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This looks to be wrong and should be checked as well. I'm guessing you don't want to go poking around so would need to be checked by someone who knows what they are doing. (any Neighbours who can wave a multimeter?)

Err, a multimeter won't show reversed polarity between L & N. A Martindale plug in tester or similar is what is required.

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I agree about L & E being detectable with a multimeter, but that is not reveresed polarity is it?

If LE doesn't show 230V and NE does then that's reverse polarity.

 

But that's irrelevant to OP's problem right now so let's concentrate on the important point of no power.

If you have a immersion heater for your calorfier, start with unplugging this one to find what's causing it too trip. If it's in the engine room, condensation at this time of year it's not a nice environment for electrics!

Good point - easily overlooked and the most likely culprit.

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I don't get your point?

L & E reversal should always trip the breaker.

 

L & N reversal is potentially dangerous. Imagine say a kettle with L & N reversed and with the plug top fuse blown. The internals of the kettle (element etc) will be live despite the fuse being blown. It is to protect against this occurrence that reversed polarity indicators are fitted.

 

Edited to add a missing worm.

Edited by cuthound
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L & E reversal should always trip the breaker.

 

L & N reversal is potentially dangerous. Imagine say a kettle with L & N reversed and with the plug top fuse blown. The internals of the kettle (element etc) will be live despite the fuse being blown. It is to protect against this occurrence that reversed polarity indicators are fitted.

 

Edited to add a missing worm.

 

Yes and this is why I pointed it out as something is a miss if the red light is too highlight reverse polarity. Too test reverse polarity you can use a multimeter, but as the OP has highlighted this is not her area (although a very descriptive post!) someone who does can see where the issue lies.

 

However a fuse doesn't protect us, the earth does so, so it's not really as dangerous you made out on a day to day biases.

Edited by Robbo
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L & E reversal is highly dangerous and almost certainly would, but L & N reversal wouldn't, which is what we were talking about.

In the Victron Combi the neutral and earth are connected together at the neutral/earth bar, so will not cause the rcd to trip.

 

The reverse polarity indicator lights when L & E are reversed, not when N & E are reversed.

 

http://www.marinesurveyor.com/allport/polarity.html

 

Apologies for the American link, it was the only one I found, but the principle remains, irrespective of supply voltage.

 

Edited to remove a spurious worm.

Edited by cuthound
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In the Victron Combi the neutral and earth are connected together at the neutral/earth bar, so will not cause the rcd to trip.

 

The reverse polarity indicator lights when L & E are reversed, not when N & E are reversed.

 

http://www.marinesurveyor.com/allport/polarity.html

 

Apologies for the American link, it was the only one I found, but the principle remains, irrespective of supply voltage.

 

Edited to remove a spurious worm.

The Combi only connects N and E when on inverter, it disconnects when it has power to it.

 

The reverse pol indicators are between N and E, if either are Live it will light up.

Edited by Robbo
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In the Victron Combi the neutral and earth are connected.

No they aren't. Not when shore power is available.

 

The reverse polarity indicator lights when L & E are reversed, not when N & E are reversed.

 

http://www.marinesurveyor.com/allport/polarity.html

It's neither. It's when L & N are reversed. From your own link: "When polarity is incorrect or reversed, it is because the hot and neutral wires are switched"

 

A simple reverse polarity indicator can be made from a neon between N & E.

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No they aren't. Not when shore power is available.

 

It's neither. It's when L & N are reversed. From your own link: "When polarity is incorrect or reversed, it is because the hot and neutral wires are switched"

A simple reverse polarity indicator can be made from a neon between N & E.

Which is what I said in post #6.

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No it isn't. You were wrong with what you posted in #6 as I pointed out at the time. In post #10

 

In post #6

Err, a multimeter won't show reversed polarity between L & N. A Martindale plug in tester or similar is what is required.

I stand by that. You mentioned measuring between L & E and then N & E which is not the same as measuring directly between L & N. The meter reads 230 volts irrespective of which way around you connect the probes.

 

I agree your way will demonstrate a reversal of L & E, but you cannot measure a L & E reversal directly.

 

I should have made this clearer by stating "directly" in post #6.

Edited by cuthound
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In post 5 Robbo asked if anyone could wield a multimeter. He didn't at that stage say how, he simply asked if anyone had the ability.

 

Your post that followed his stated that "a multimeter won't show reversed polarity". Yes it will, if correctly used. You appear to have made assumptions about how you would use it, not how Robbo would have said to use it.

 

In a later post you stated that the Victron links N&E. You were wrong again.

 

In the same post you incorrectly stated what reverse polarity is even when you'd included a link that correctly stated what it is.

 

You mentioned measuring between L & E and then N & E which is not the same as measuring directly between L & N.

Of course it isn't. And nobody had suggested that a. it was, or b. that's how it should be done.

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So there you have it OP....just follow these clear unambiguous instructions and your life will return to one of pure joy.

 

On a serious note it does (perhaps) indicate why proper face to face professional assistance is a better option. judge.gif

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In post 5 Robbo asked if anyone could wield a multimeter. He didn't at that stage say how, he simply asked if anyone had the ability.

Your post that followed his stated that "a multimeter won't show reversed polarity". Yes it will, if correctly used. You appear to have made assumptions about how you would use it, not how Robbo would have said to use it.

In a later post you stated that the Victron links N&E. You were wrong again.

In the same post you incorrectly stated what reverse polarity is even when you'd included a link that correctly stated what it is.

 

Of course it isn't. And nobody had suggested that a. it was, or b. that's how it should be done.

Yes I assumed that Robbo meant to measure across L & N. I apologise.

 

With regard to the Victron Combi linking N & E. My manual states:

 

"Ground relay (see appendix B) With this relay (H), the neutral conductor of the AC output is grounded to the chassis when the back feed safety relay is open. This ensures the correct operation of earth leakage circuit breakers in the output. If a non-grounded output is required during inverter operation, this function must be turned off. (See also Section 4.5) Not adjustable with DIP switches.". Surely this indicates that N & E are linked when the inverter is operating?

 

Re-reading my post 14 I realise I made a typo, and said L & E reversal when I meant L & N. However surely it is obvious what I meant by my inclusion of the link?

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So there you have it OP....just follow these clear unambiguous instructions and your life will return to one of pure joy.

 

On a serious note it does (perhaps) indicate why proper face to face professional assistance is a better option. judge.gif

Posts 2, 3, and 4 answer his questions and 3 & 4 in particular have clear unambiguous instructions.

 

He hasn't been back since so we got bored and sidetracked...

 

Tony

 

With regard to the Victron Combi linking N & E. My manual states:

 

"Ground relay (see appendix B) With this relay (H), the neutral conductor of the AC output is grounded to the chassis when the back feed safety relay is open. This ensures the correct operation of earth leakage circuit breakers in the output. If a non-grounded output is required during inverter operation, this function must be turned off. (See also Section 4.5) Not adjustable with DIP switches.". Surely this indicates that N & E are linked when the inverter is operating?

See the bit in bold.

 

N&E are only bonded by the inverter when there is no incoming mains.

 

Tony

Edited by WotEver
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Posts 2, 3, and 4 answer his questions and 3 & 4 in particular have clear unambiguous instructions.

He hasn't been back since so we got bored and sidetracked...

Tony

 

See the bit in bold.

N&E are only bonded when there is no incoming mains.

Tony

I realise that. That is why I said when the inverer is operating. However being pedantic, it will rely on the mains NE bonding, rather than its internal bonding, when the inverer is in "mains assist" mode.

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I realise that. That is why I said when the inverer is operating.

So what on earth were you taking about when you wrote

In the Victron Combi the neutral and earth are connected together at the neutral/earth bar, so will not cause the rcd to trip..

??
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