another windlass query

[magnetman]

I found this windlass years ago on the southern GU. It is the right size for the previous GU large spindles before " standardisation "

 

Anyway I think it was chrome plated before or silvered but its been in the cut a while.

 

Its rather unusual with a long throw - possibly a ladies windlass? Never seen another the same and I have seen quite a few windlasses.

 

Looks a bit weak but no sign of bending. Not sure if it is forged or cast. I think forged as there are some signs of iron laminations looking closely at it.

 

Possibly for winding a winch rather than a paddle?

[Derek R.]

River Wey windlasses were long in the shank, they had to be to lift some of those paddles. Available from Mr. Stevens at the first lock (or were).

[magnetman]

We've been up the Wey a few times (last time was May 16) and yes they do have a long reach but also a much smaller socket. I had about 10 windlasses out with the magnet last trip but nothing old - all had signs of electric welding

 

Its possible they changed the spindles on the Wey but the windlass in my pics above definitely seems to be the old GU size .

 

Typo

Edited September 15, 2016 by magnetman

[Ray T]

Here's a long throw windlass in use on G.U. gear:

 

 

 

Before it raises its ugly head again Ham Baker gear is not hydraulic:

 

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Ray T

[magnetman]

Yes and before it raises its ugly head again the Ham Baker candlesticks have tapered spindles unlike the hydraulic granny gears which -almost always- have a parallel spindle

 

 

Thanks for the top picture Ray T as it seems very similar to the windlass I found

[Ray T]

Yes and before it raises its ugly head again the Ham Baker candlesticks have tapered spindles unlike the hydraulic granny gears which -almost always- have a parallel spindle

 

 

Thanks for the top picture Ray T as it seems very similar to the windlass I found

 

Photo courtesy of Alan Fincher:

 

 

[magnetman]

 

But I just measured the socket and it is not tapered at all.

 

As I understand it the southern GU had parallel large spindles similar to the 'Granny gear' type until sometime fairly recently. I have had 25 hand forged single socket windlasses out with the magnet between Uxbridge and Milton Keynes and they all have large sockets which would fit the Granny gears but some of then are parallel and some tapered.

 

I have also had old gate paddle spindle arms out and they seemed to have large parallel ends on them but perhaps there was a very slight taper

A taper is obviously helpful to prevent the windlass working its way off.

 

 

All a bit overly detailed but I find it intriguing anyway

 

There are still some old side pond paddles here and there on the GU perhaps its worth putting a caliper on them.

 

Oh dear

 

Photo courtesy of Alan Fincher:

 

DSCF5928.jpg

Been there

 

It looks parallel but if you put a caliper on it I believe it will show a slight taper.

[Chertsey]

Didn't the Chesterfield Canal Society people have something similar on their stall at Alvecote? Probably not, I didn't commit it to memory, but it had a long throw and had many people mystified.

[Ray T]

It looks parallel but if you put a caliper on it I believe it will show a slight taper.

 

I don't doubt you.

 

My Dunton Double windlass is tapered and it fits the candlestick gear perfectly.

 

The top of these two is an old BW windlass made to fit the original southern G.U. spindles. I have had to sleeve it so it fits snugly on the candlestick spindles.

 

 

 

I'm out on the boat tomorrow, need to get out more.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Ray T

[alan_fincher]

No, the original GU paddle gear on the Southern GU, (before it was all whittled down to the current "standard" size), had a very significant taper on it. (I thought I could find a picture, but currently I can't).

 

Although windlasses were made that lacked this taper, (cheap welded steel ones mostly), they were never really suitable. The correct item had as much taper as those for the new "standardised" size, just it was larger overall.

 

Bizarrely when hydraulic paddles first appeared I'm sure they used the smaller narrow canals type spindle size, (also tapered),but I can't explain what happened between the 1970s and the 2000s, because non hydraulic spindles got reduced, but it seems hydraulic ones at some stage acquired the large untapered spindles. All most odd, unless my memory is completely flawed!

 

I think that whilst the Ham Baker spindles have a slight taper, it is very slight, and far less than on other mechanical types. If you consider the ubiquitous Walsh alloy windlasses, the large eye is only very mildly tapered compared to a much greater taper on the small eye.

 

And don't get me going about those steel cage style ones that only bear on the spindle over a very small area. they appear to have been designed with the sole intention of introducing wear spots on the spindles!

 

 

My Dunton Double windlass is tapered and it fits the candlestick gear perfectly.

 

 

But it only goes on a small way, until it meets the part for the smaller spindle size, doesn't it?

 

I think if you examine it closely, you will find that whilst there is a lot of taper on the small part, (which will not do over the Ham baker spindles at all), the but that will is at best only very mildly tapered.

I'm happy to be proved wrong though, as my example is on the boat.

 

We should be doing some Ham baker locks on Saturday, so I'll take another look!

EDITED TO ADD:

This is what a windlass for original Southern GU large tapered spindle size looks like. These used to fit pretty accurately.

 

Edited September 15, 2016 by alan_fincher

[Laurence Hogg]

Here's a long throw windlass in use on G.U. gear:

 

Ham Baker.jpg

 

Before it raises its ugly head again Ham Baker gear is not hydraulic:

 

DSCF2076.JPG

 

I think Ray is correct on this one. Its much longer than a ladies windlass.

[Derek R.]

There's a few links to windlass posts available through the search function. Just one: http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=7499

 

How long is that throw Magnetman? Looks huge. I have one that is 11" from centre of the eye to centre of the handle, and stamped GJCC (all over it in fact!).

[magnetman]

No, the original GU paddle gear on the Southern GU, (before it was all whittled down to the current "standard" size), had a very significant taper on it. (I thought I could find a picture, but currently I can't).

 

Although windlasses were made that lacked this taper, (cheap welded steel ones mostly), they were never really suitable. The correct item had as much taper as those for the new "standardised" size, just it was larger overall.

 

Bizarrely when hydraulic paddles first appeared I'm sure they used the smaller narrow canals type spindle size, (also tapered),but I can't explain what happened between the 1970s and the 2000s, because non hydraulic spindles got reduced, but it seems hydraulic ones at some stage acquired the large untapered spindles. All most odd, unless my memory is completely flawed!

 

I think that whilst the Ham Baker spindles have a slight taper, it is very slight, and far less than on other mechanical types. If you consider the ubiquitous Walsh alloy windlasses, the large eye is only very mildly tapered compared to a much greater taper on the small eye.

 

And don't get me going about those steel cage style ones that only bear on the spindle over a very small area. they appear to have been designed with the sole intention of introducing wear spots on the spindles!

 

 

 

 

But it only goes on a small way, until it meets the part for the smaller spindle size, doesn't it?

 

I think if you examine it closely, you will find that whilst there is a lot of taper on the small part, (which will not do over the Ham baker spindles at all), the but that will is at best only very mildly tapered.

 

I'm happy to be proved wrong though, as my example is on the boat.

 

We should be doing some Ham baker locks on Saturday, so I'll take another look!

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

This is what a windlass for original Southern GU large tapered spindle size looks like. These used to fit pretty accurately.

 

Not quite sure what I was on about yesterday because I know the southern Grand Union paddle gear had a large taper as I have had plenty of the cast iron single socket windlasses out. However I have also had much older hand forged windlasses out which did not have the same size taper. And old hand forged gate paddle spindles with a more parallel looking end on them.

 

I suspect there was another change to the spindle sizes - have a look at the remaining side pond paddles on GU south locks. They don't seem to be tapered. I think the Grand Junction probably had a slightly different size socket to the more modern Grand Union. There was a lot of work carried our in the 30s - perhaps this included new paddle gear and windlasses?

There's a few links to windlass posts available through the search function. Just one: http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=7499

 

How long is that throw Magnetman? Looks huge. I have one that is 11" from centre of the eye to centre of the handle, and stamped GJCC (all over it in fact!).

Its 12" centre of eye to centre of handle. Does your GJCC windlass have a parallel or tapered socket Derek?

 

There is a GJCC one in Stoke Bruerne museum which looks to me like a parallel socket which would back up my theory.

Edited September 16, 2016 by magnetman

[magnetman]

 

I think Ray is correct on this one. Its much longer than a ladies windlass.

I think there is a good chance it is for the candlesticks because there seems to be very little support between the shaft and the socket on the windlass in my op. This looks like it would bend if used with heavy ground paddles but on the screw-jack type less starting up pressure is needed and a longer handle is usable as it won't foul on anything like a lock balance beam.

Edit to reduce word count

Edited September 16, 2016 by magnetman

[Laurence Hogg]

No, the original GU paddle gear on the Southern GU, (before it was all whittled down to the current "standard" size), had a very significant taper on it. (I thought I could find a picture, but currently I can't).

 

Although windlasses were made that lacked this taper, (cheap welded steel ones mostly), they were never really suitable. The correct item had as much taper as those for the new "standardised" size, just it was larger overall.

 

Bizarrely when hydraulic paddles first appeared I'm sure they used the smaller narrow canals type spindle size, (also tapered),but I can't explain what happened between the 1970s and the 2000s, because non hydraulic spindles got reduced, but it seems hydraulic ones at some stage acquired the large untapered spindles. All most odd, unless my memory is completely flawed!

 

I think that whilst the Ham Baker spindles have a slight taper, it is very slight, and far less than on other mechanical types. If you consider the ubiquitous Walsh alloy windlasses, the large eye is only very mildly tapered compared to a much greater taper on the small eye.

 

And don't get me going about those steel cage style ones that only bear on the spindle over a very small area. they appear to have been designed with the sole intention of introducing wear spots on the spindles!

 

 

 

But it only goes on a small way, until it meets the part for the smaller spindle size, doesn't it?

 

I think if you examine it closely, you will find that whilst there is a lot of taper on the small part, (which will not do over the Ham baker spindles at all), the but that will is at best only very mildly tapered.

 

I'm happy to be proved wrong though, as my example is on the boat.

 

We should be doing some Ham baker locks on Saturday, so I'll take another look!

 

EDITED TO ADD:

 

This is what a windlass for original Southern GU large tapered spindle size looks like. These used to fit pretty accurately.

 

 

That's one of our early BCC bronze windlasses, they had a proper taper.

[magnetman]

This is my only bronze windlass - its a small taper and fits the current spindles pretty well. Any idea who made it? It has 4 stamped into one side near the eye. It is very solid and definitely not going to bend! Also quite heavy.

9.5" throw so fairly long

[Derek R.]

Does your GJCC windlass have a parallel or tapered socket Derek?

 

There is a GJCC one in Stoke Bruerne museum which looks to me like a parallel socket which would back up my theory.

 

There's barely any taper on it. 1" 3/8ths at the widest end, less than a 1/16th" of an inch less at the other, almost parallel. The handle is pretty long too at 10" from end to half way around the bend.

 

[BWM]

I have recently obtained an old windlass stamped with what appears to be the name pocock, it is similar to the above and forged. Does anyone have any information about this type?