Should we buy this boat? Opinions please!

[Melissas]

Hello,

I'm very much a newbie after some expert opinions please.

Me and my fiance are buying our first narrowboat and looking to become continuous cruisers.

We've been to see quite a lot of boats now, but saw this 70ft Jonathan Wilson boat yesterday and are considering putting in an offer.

https://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/3719.aspx

It's with Whilton Marina and they state they don't have a huge amount of history about her, so no recent survey to speak of, BSC till July 2018 (but they will issue a new one complete with sale) and she was last blacked and had anodes checked in 2013, so I guess that this is due again pretty imminently. She's got Eberspacher central heating and a Bubble stove at present. She seemed clean and dry inside, but I noticed that the wood frame which sits around the internal windows seemed to be missing and I could see the polystyrene insulation (this was dry to touch).

The sale would include a new BSC, engine service (a BMC 1.8 engine) and also if anything was found on survey which affects its current insurability they will do the works for free.

My concerns are that that the engine is old and might not be ideal for continuous cruising among other things, but my main concern is our lack of experience when it comes to buying a boat!

Any opinions or recommendations gratefully received, thank you very much !

[RLWP]

The 1.8 was a popular choice for hire boat companies at one time due to it being pretty bomb (and hirer) proof. Spares are readily available too

 

Richard

[Athy]

It's a l-o-t of boat for the money and seems quite well appointed. J. Wilson is a respected name amongst boatbuilders (though this boat, if really a 1990 build, must have been his after-school CDT homework). I like that pine-clad look (some people can't stand it).

 

My main concern, after a cursory viewing, would be the solid fuel stove; every boat should have one, but that one, with no hearth and apparently no fireproofing behind it, looks like a potential death trap. Perhaps it is not actually installed and has been placed there to look pretty. Find out.

[alan_fincher]

Hard to say, and details don't seem to show any obvious "gotchas", but I note.......

 

1) Seems quite pricey for a 26 year old boat

2) Owner self-fit out rather than fitted by professional boatbuilder - is the quality of the fit-out reasonable?

3) Polystyrene insulation OK, but.....

3a) How thick is it - it looks like there may not be a great thickness in the cabin sides?

3b) Hard to know if a self fit out has closed all the gaps - any staining on any of the woodwork might mean it is inadequate somewhere nearby.

3c) Is any wiring kept segregated from the polystyrene, as you can get a chemical reaction between the two.
4) If you only have diesel as a heating option, it will cost more to run than would solid fuel.

5) Eberspaachers tend to be unreliable as a full time heat source - the Bubble stove should be more reliable, but probably less heat efficient. However the Bubble does not appear to heat the water or the radiators, and may not keep a 70 foot boat warm enough on its own, particularly if insulation is less than modern standards.

6) Rinnai instantaneous water heaters are probably the less well regarded. Using an LPG heater to provide hot water will be more expensive than other options.

7) It doesn't seem to suggest running the engine can heat a calorifier, which would be normal - so no "free" hot water when cruising?

8) That top bunk looks ridiculously narrow.

9) By modern standards some might consider a BMC 1.8 a bit small for a 70 foot boat, particularly if doing river work. That said it would have been usual once, just many people now seem to insist on something more powerful.
10) At over 25 yeras old, an insurance company may well require you repeat surveys every 6 yeras or so to maintian comprehensive cover, (although some may not).

 

I'll stop at 10 after a quick look, but maybe some food for thought in there.

You do realise the 70 foot length will limit the canals you can travel, and if you want a permanent mooring, that they tend to be relatively rare for full length boats?

My main concern, after a cursory viewing, would be the solid fuel stove; every boat should have one, but that one, with no hearth and apparently no fireproofing behind it, looks like a potential death trap. Perhaps it is not actually installed and has been placed there to look pretty. Find out.

 

It's an oil fired stove, I think, so a hearth isn't going to serve any great purpose.

[Melissas]

Thanks for all your replies,they're really helpful.

 

 

Thanks very much alan_fincher, that's real food for thought, I need to go back and do my homework I think!

[Athy]

 

 

It's an oil fired stove, I think, so a hearth isn't going to serve any great purpose.

Good point - it looks like a solid-fuel burner, but if you're right, then of course there are no worries in that direction.

Melissas, have you ever steered a boat of that length? It's v-e-r-y long! The upside, of course, is that when you do find a mooring space, you have lots of Lebensraum inside.

[Sir Percy]

...I noticed that the wood frame which sits around the internal windows seemed to be missing...

 

 

Got to wonder why - removed after sustaining damage from a leak possibly? Did you ask about it?

[Melissas]

Hi Athy,

Thanks for your reply

I haven't steered one that long no - she was very long indeed.

In truth I was originally veering towards a 60ft, but was amazed by how spacious the 70footers are and fell in love a bit!

But in terms of finding a mooring, I am wondering if I may have to take a step back as I have also been told it's tricky to find continuous cruising spots as well.

 

Got to wonder why - removed after sustaining damage from a leak possibly? Did you ask about it?

Thanks Sir Percy. Yes I did ask, but they said that they did not know as the boat had been sold to them in that condition. It was the same for every window within the boat.

Thanks for picking up on that, it's great to be able to get some good advice, as this is all so new to me and it's a pretty steep learning curve!

[RLWP]

But in terms of finding a mooring, I am wondering if I may have to take a step back as I have also been told it's tricky to find continuous cruising spots as well.

 

We have never had to cruise through the night because we couldn't moor our 70 foot boat!

 

Oh, hang on - are you intending to continuous cruise her in London?

 

Richard

[keith.]

In my view it is over priced - yes it is long but it is also 26 yrs old and not fitted with any thing that is outstanding nor expensive. As you state that Whilton own it they will normally include a hull survey so definitely need to get that on their account.

[MtB]

1) Seems quite pricey for a 26 year old boat

 

 

Not entirely on-topic but it might be helpful to the OP to read my musings on how brokers, Whilton in particular, decide on the price of the boats they sell.

 

Boats for sale at Whilton fall into one of two categories.

 

1) Boats privately owned and placed on brokerage at Whilton by the owner, a bit like a house is placed with an estate agent. The owner pays the broker a percentage of the selling price on completion of the sale. Typically perhaps 5% plus VAT. Here, it initially appears to be to the broker's advantage to sell at a high price in order tio maximise their commission, but if you reflect of the work it takes and time the boat occupies a berth on the broker's site, it actually makes more business sense to sell a boat on brokerage cheaply as you could probably sell three boats 15% underpriced in the same time it tales to sell one boat 10% overpriced. So it is in the interest of a broker to constantly prssure the seller to reduce the price in orer to get the bost sold quickly and the sales commission banked.

 

2) Boats owned by the broker firm itself. Firms like Whilton run adverts in the boating publications along the lines of "We buy any boat, cash waiting". They go along and have a brief look over a boat and offer a low, low price on the spot. If the deal is accepted they make immediate payment and send an employee along to steer the boat away and bring it back to the sales site. Once back at base they fix anything obviously wrong then photograph it and place it on sale at as high a price as they think they can get. They will know virtually nothing about the boat, understandably.

 

Now consider the effect on the broker's potential profit if you offer say 10% under the sale price on each of two £30k boats, one in each of the two categories above.

 

In the first category the broker, should your offer be accepted, makes £1,350 instead of £1,500. Not a massive difference.

 

But what about the boat they paid £20k for and have on sale at £30k? They stand to make FAR more money from this sale - £10k profit. But your 10% reduction means a selling price of £27k so their bottom line profit is reduced by £3k, a FAR bigger loss to the firm than on the other boat.

 

So when negotiating a purchase it is helpful if you can figure out whether the boat is genuinely on brokerage (i.e.a commission sale) or owned and being sold by the brokerage itself.

 

If owned and being sold by the brokerage firm itself you also get a whole raft of consumer protection missing when you buy a boat genuinely sold on commission on behalf of the private seller.

[OldGoat]

The electrical equipment on this boat - fridge / washing machine / tumble dryer is all 240V mains and take a lot of power .

There is only a (very) small inverter - which couldn't power any of the above items.(I'd be interested to know if it had been used to power the fridge / freezer as perceived wisdom is that 600W is to small) So it's reasonable to assume that the boat has been kept in a marina with shore power.

 

The BMC (ducks for cover) was not an engine that was easily modified to fit a large® alternator needed to generate enough power to keep the batteries topped up for today's "essential" use let alone a F/F.

 

You won't be able to get a power hook up in London (yet) if you are CCing.

 

You will have difficulty in finding a mooring space in London for a 70 footer.

[Peter X]

I'm no expert, but I have a gut feeling that this boat could be quite good value. For one thing, that pine cladding is so 1990, very un-trendy nowadays, and would put a lot of people off even though it would be easy and cheap to paint over it in the colour of your choice. You could do a lot worse than to consider the questions Alan Fincher and others have raised, work out a rough budget for the changes you would make to adapt the boats to your taste, then make an offer and see what Whilton say.

 

Having spent much of this summer on a pair of 70 foot boats, some of it steering the motor, I think driving a longer boat is not so hard as it's cracked up to be, especially as you don't plan to be single handed. Before this year I'd had some experience of steering boats, mostly "go anywhere" boats of around 55 feet, but you do get used to the demands of a 70' boat. It does mean being careful in locks, resting against the bottom gate going down and coping with the water flow when going up; beware of gate paddles flooding that bow! It also means being cautious when approaching tight bends.

 

Finding a mooring is harder, but it all depends where; I can imagine it would be tough in London and some other hotspots, but generally there is always room somewhere; the NBT pair needs either 72 feet of towpath breasted up, or double that if singled out, but we manage. It probably helps that you plan to CC, as 70 foot marina moorings can be hard to find but in most areas there's usually a stretch of towpath somewhere to suit you. Do learn the art of mooring properly with pins if you haven't already.

 

You give your location as London; if you do plan to CC mostly within the M25, especially if in central London and the East End (difficult anyway due to CRT enforcement, heavily discussed in other topics), please run away from this boat and look for something shorter!

[Melissas]

Thanks to all for your really helpful replies and for taking the time to give your advice, it is gratefully received.

 

Good to understand how the Brokerages work, thanks Mike - that explains why Whilton told me that there would be little movement on the price.

 

Yes, we were intending on continuously cruising in London RWLP and Peter X, so I think we need to take your advice and keep looking for the 60footer that we originally intended on. Thanks for your help!

[Alan de Enfield]

I have also been told it's tricky to find continuous cruising spots as well.

 

 

Not quite sure what you mean by this ?

 

Unless you are planning to CC in London (apparently almost an impossibility these days) then there is about 2000 miles of 'continuous cruising spots' to choose from.

[cuthound]

How many hours has thecengine done?

 

We had a shareboat with a BMC 1.8. It lasted 13,000 hours, but most in the fleet needed new engines at around 10,000 hours.

 

A replacement Beta 43 will cost over £7,000 to supply and install.

 

The diesel fuelled stove is more convenisn't than a coal fired one, in that it is easily lit and turned off.

 

At current diesel prices there is not much differenice in running costs compared to coal, but if diesel rises back up to its previous peak, then it will cost much more than coal to heat the boat.

 

I have a diesel fired stove in a 60 foot boat with Thinsulate insulation, and it keeps the boat warm and toasty. Not sure if this wilL be the case in a 70 foot boat with polystyrene insulstion, and not something you can try and gauge in the current weather.

[Catnip King]

Seems like a decent boat to me. Offer them £33k and bet they take it.

[MoominPapa]

It's a l-o-t of boat for the money and seems quite well appointed. J. Wilson is a respected name amongst boatbuilders (though this boat, if really a 1990 build, must have been his after-school CDT homework).

Melaleuca is a Wilson Hull and was finished in 1991, so the hull was built in 1990 or 1991, a near contemporary of this.

 

MP.

[David Mack]

I haven't steered one that long no - she was very long indeed.

In truth I was originally veering towards a 60ft, but was amazed by how spacious the 70footers are and fell in love a bit!

 

If you can steer a 60 footer then 70 will be no problem. Long boats tend to go where you point them. In my experience, most short narrowboats have an annoying habit of heading straight for the bank as soon as you take your hand off the tiller (or let your attention wander).

[Tam & Di]

 

Now consider the effect on the broker's potential profit if you offer say 10% under the sale price on each of two £30k boats, one in each of the two categories above.

 

In the first category the broker, should your offer be accepted, makes £1,350 instead of £1,500. Not a massive difference.

 

But what about the boat they paid £20k for and have on sale at £30k? They stand to make FAR more money from this sale - £10k profit. But your 10% reduction means a selling price of £27k so their bottom line profit is reduced by £3k, a FAR bigger loss to the firm than on the other boat.

 

So when negotiating a purchase it is helpful if you can figure out whether the boat is genuinely on brokerage (i.e.a commission sale) or owned and being sold by the brokerage itself.

 

If owned and being sold by the brokerage firm itself you also get a whole raft of consumer protection missing when you buy a boat genuinely sold on commission on behalf of the private seller.

 

Another factor in its effect on the price as far as the buyer is concerned is that if it is sold on brokerage Whilton will have to charge VAT on the brokerage fee. If the boat belongs to them the will have to charge VAT on the whole price of the boat. So Whilton would not only want a bigger mark up if they've bought it for resale, but the VAT element will be much greater too.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Tam & Di

[eye high skipper]

 

 

Not entirely on-topic but it might be helpful to the OP to read my musings on how brokers, Whilton in particular, decide on the price of the boats they sell.

 

Boats for sale at Whilton fall into one of two categories.

 

1) Boats privately owned and placed on brokerage at Whilton by the owner, a bit like a house is placed with an estate agent. The owner pays the broker a percentage of the selling price on completion of the sale. Typically perhaps 5% plus VAT. Here, it initially appears to be to the broker's advantage to sell at a high price in order tio maximise their commission, but if you reflect of the work it takes and time the boat occupies a berth on the broker's site, it actually makes more business sense to sell a boat on brokerage cheaply as you could probably sell three boats 15% underpriced in the same time it tales to sell one boat 10% overpriced. So it is in the interest of a broker to constantly prssure the seller to reduce the price in orer to get the bost sold quickly and the sales commission banked.

 

2) Boats owned by the broker firm itself. Firms like Whilton run adverts in the boating publications along the lines of "We buy any boat, cash waiting". They go along and have a brief look over a boat and offer a low, low price on the spot. If the deal is accepted they make immediate payment and send an employee along to steer the boat away and bring it back to the sales site. Once back at base they fix anything obviously wrong then photograph it and place it on sale at as high a price as they think they can get. They will know virtually nothing about the boat, understandably.

 

Now consider the effect on the broker's potential profit if you offer say 10% under the sale price on each of two £30k boats, one in each of the two categories above.

 

In the first category the broker, should your offer be accepted, makes £1,350 instead of £1,500. Not a massive difference.

 

But what about the boat they paid £20k for and have on sale at £30k? They stand to make FAR more money from this sale - £10k profit. But your 10% reduction means a selling price of £27k so their bottom line profit is reduced by £3k, a FAR bigger loss to the firm than on the other boat.

 

So when negotiating a purchase it is helpful if you can figure out whether the boat is genuinely on brokerage (i.e.a commission sale) or owned and being sold by the brokerage itself.

 

If owned and being sold by the brokerage firm itself you also get a whole raft of consumer protection missing when you buy a boat genuinely sold on commission on behalf of the private seller.

 

Is that because you think if the boat is owned by the broker, they are less likely to accept a lower offer?

[Athy]

 

Is that because you think if the boat is owned by the broker, they are less likely to accept a lower offer?

As amply explained in posts 11 (which you have quoted) and 20.

 

I must admit that I didn't know that V.A.T. was payable on second-hand goods.

[eye high skipper]

As amply explained in posts 11 (which you have quoted) and 20.

 

I must admit that I didn't know that V.A.T. was payable on second-hand goods.

 

Apologies if I made a post I shouldn't have done.

 

I was only asking for clarification as although MtB's post did seem to be implying a reduced offer might hurt the broker more, do the figures contradict that? Against a £1,350 commission they still had a £7k profit (minus the cost of fixing anything obvious) if accepting the £27k. Though now VAT has been mentioned I'm not sure where that fits in.

 

Anyway don't want to derail the OP's thread and good luck if they purchase this boat or in their hunt for another.

[MoominPapa]

 

Another factor in its effect on the price as far as the buyer is concerned is that if it is sold on brokerage Whilton will have to charge VAT on the brokerage fee. If the boat belongs to them the will have to charge VAT on the whole price of the boat. So Whilton would not only want a bigger mark up if they've bought it for resale, but the VAT element will be much greater too.

Surely they'll reclaim VAT on the price they paid, so the effective VAT is on Whilton's profit on the boat (sale price minus purchase price) which may or may not be larger than the brokerage fee on a similar boat?

 

MP.

[Geo]

 

Another factor in its effect on the price as far as the buyer is concerned is that if it is sold on brokerage Whilton will have to charge VAT on the brokerage fee. If the boat belongs to them the will have to charge VAT on the whole price of the boat. So Whilton would not only want a bigger mark up if they've bought it for resale, but the VAT element will be much greater too.

 

I don't think VAT is chargeable on the whole price only the difference between the price Whilton's bought the boat for and the price it was sold at. So if they bought it in at say 15K and sold at 30K VAT would be chargeable on 15K, which would be 3K, makes their ability to move more difficult I would think.

 

ETA Interestingly they would have to show that VAT as part of the price and that should allow one to back calculate the buying cost.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Geo