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Overstaying and Sighting Record


dmr

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The shortcomings of C&RT's 'boat logging' system, and the inaccuracy of the information it collects and produces may be news to some, but the fact that it isn't 'fit for purpose' and never has been, is something that was established long ago.

 

On 6 August 2014, the Trust got close to admitting as much in an E-mail ~ quote : ~

 

". . . the information held within our corporate systems can be extracted and displayed in many different ways depending on the reason or purpose it is needed."

 

This rare example of honesty and openness came shortly after they were caught out producing fictitious boat location print-outs as evidence to use in Court.

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And now you will get 'howls of protest' :

 

I am not going to be 'tracked'

Its a free country

I don't have to tell them where I am

 

and so on

 

It would obviously need to be optional.

 

But the word of a boater producing one filled in over time would clearly carry more weight than that of a boater who just baldly asserts CRT's data is wrong and produces no evidence.

 

As would the word of any boater who currently keeps a crusing log, photos, etc, so not a lot different from now other than the format of the 'cruising log' document becomes a little more formalised.

  • Greenie 1
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Keeping a simple log with a few photos is a good idea, otherwise you can't even remember where you were the day before yesterday.

We trade and do the concessional festival and floating market so have the ultimate tool at our disposal....get a photo of one of us chatting to Richard the boss.

 

................Dave

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Moor up outside each pub you pass on your travels, take a photo of the boat outside the pub with you on the boat holding up today's paper in one hand and a nice cold pint in the other. This will not only prove that you cruise it will also give you all the necessary research should you choose to write a good canalside pub guide.

It's a win, win ???????

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If as it seems CaRT & BW before them wish to initiate legal action against boaters based on their sighting reports then as far as am concerned it is up to CaRT to ensure their system is fit for purpose, not for the boater to prove it is not. I say this in the knowledge of the "satisfy the board" thing.

 

It is also clear that both CaRT employees and volunteers collect boat identifications that CaRT deny and/or never appear in the sighting records. The question is how can boaters force CaRT to collect ALL sightings rather than those they choose to. I am afraid that apparent from prohibitively expensive legal action boaters can not.

 

It also seems none of the organisation like NABO, IWA , RYA etc. are willing to take this on.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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Moor up outside each pub you pass on your travels, take a photo of the boat outside the pub with you on the boat holding up today's paper in one hand and a nice cold pint in the other. This will not only prove that you cruise it will also give you all the necessary research should you choose to write a good canalside pub guide.

It's a win, win

 

We've been sort of doing this, we have lots of pictures of us sitting in pubs drinking beer, and sometimes reading the papers, forgot to include the boat in the pictures though.

 

................Dave

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We've been sort of doing this, we have lots of pictures of us sitting in pubs drinking beer, and sometimes reading the papers, forgot to include the boat in the pictures though.

 

................Dave

hard to get a boat in a pub i would have thought :lol:

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If as it seems CaRT & BW before them wish to initiate legal action against boaters based on their sighting reports then as far as am concerned it is up to CaRT to ensure their system is fit for purpose, not for the boater to prove it is not. I say this in the knowledge of the "satisfy the board" thing.

 

It is also clear that both CaRT employees and volunteers collect boat identifications that CaRT deny and/or never appear in the sighting records. The question is how can boaters force CaRT to collect ALL sightings rather than those they choose to. I am afraid that apparent from prohibitively expensive legal action boaters can not.

 

It also seems none of the organisation like NABO, IWA , RYA etc. are willing to take this on.

 

Our sighting record showed a "potential overstay" which is fair. I accept that if we return to a location after a few weeks that this might well happen, and would much rather have this than an overbearing sighting system. I was just intrigued to see that the sightings were possibly region based rather than national.

A bigger concern is that do these "potential overstays" remain on the system after we have negated them? Mud sticks and no smoke without fire etc so if we do really get into overstay trouble later (engine failure or health issues etc) will these potential overstays add to the evidence against us?

 

...............Dave

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Again - the issue of incomplete (or wrongly interpreted) data is not unique to C&RT.

 

Our local ASDA applied for planning permission to install CCTV enforced parking restrictions. Two hour limit, no return within three hours.

 

(Two points; they needed planning permission for the cameras and the signage, not the use the images would be put to. Second, they are next to the railway station - a lot of London commuters used ASDA to avoid the station car park and £7 a day)

 

Most local residents supported the application, citing difficulties they had with parking and shopping.

 

After the CCTV went live, a huge number of local residents got booked. On investigation, most were quashed. A typical story was "dropped wife at ASDA, went to B&Q (two miles up the road), came back and picked wife up". Two visits, each of five minutes but within three hours of each other.

 

So, the locals had interpreted "Two hour limit, no return with three hours" in a different fashion to the parking company. We've now got it (I think) agreed as "no more than two hours in any three hour period" - whether they can actually reprogram the computer to action this correctly is anyone's guess.

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Our sighting record showed a "potential overstay" which is fair. ........... ................... .......... ................ ......... .....................

 

........ Mud sticks and no smoke without fire etc so if we do really get into overstay trouble later (engine failure or health issues etc) will these potential overstays add to the evidence against us?

 

...............Dave

 

You can sleep soundly, secure in the knowledge that you need not have any concerns about 'evidence' of past misdemeanors being kept on record.

 

I can assure you that C&RT definitely do NOT keep damning evidence on record to use against boaters on some future date.

 

In the event of historical evidence and records of previous 'overstaying' being needed for any any reason, they simply create and falsify them, as required at the time, . . . . . see Post #26.

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I keep a cruising log, and have done for years, just for my own referral, as my memory is terrible.

 

Recently C&RT texted me suggesting I may have over stayed whilst moored at Gurnett Aqueduct on the Macclesfield.

 

They had correctly logged my presence on two dates, 14 days apart.

 

However whilst the sightings were accurate, during the course of the two weeks I had cruised to Marple, back to Bollington, and returned to Gurnett, mooring at a range of locations in the process.

 

The matter was resolved with phone calls, and I was assured that no record of the inaccurate over stay allegation would be kept.

 

Their records were accurate, but did not show the full picture.

 

Rog

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Moor up outside each pub you pass on your travels, take a photo of the boat outside the pub with you on the boat holding up today's paper in one hand and a nice cold pint in the other. This will not only prove that you cruise it will also give you all the necessary research should you choose to write a good canalside pub guide.

It's a win, win

I would do that and keep receipts for diesel, shopping etc if CC ing.

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Does anyone really, really, want a CRT boat tracking system that is 100% efficient and accurate? I suppose a camera on every bridge with registration plate recognition could be arranged - it works on motorways, after all.. Either you want no tracking whatsoever, or you have to have a system which you meet halfway with your own records and be prepared to have the odd discussion and maybe one or two heated arguments. Thirty years ago nobody cared (for many reasons) much if you hardly/never moved, but now they do.

The endless "not fit for the purpose" chorus is getting a bit dull - I've not seen a constructive alternative suggested yet.

  • Greenie 2
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Does anyone really, really, want a CRT boat tracking system that is 100% efficient and accurate? I suppose a camera on every bridge with registration plate recognition could be arranged - it works on motorways, after all.. Either you want no tracking whatsoever, or you have to have a system which you meet halfway with your own records and be prepared to have the odd discussion and maybe one or two heated arguments. Thirty years ago nobody cared (for many reasons) much if you hardly/never moved, but now they do.

The endless "not fit for the purpose" chorus is getting a bit dull - I've not seen a constructive alternative suggested yet.

Absolutely agree.

 

The point I was trying to make was that in my case the record was accurate, but didn't contain full details. My contemporaneous record of my cruising would (if required, and I don't believe it ever will be) corroborate my account of my movements.

 

Rog

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Absolutely agree.

 

The point I was trying to make was that in my case the record was accurate, but didn't contain full details. My contemporaneous record of my cruising would (if required, and I don't believe it ever will be) corroborate my account of my movements.

 

Rog

There appears to be a great deal of paranoia about the need to prove you have moved. Over my time of reading this forum the majority of times there has been a problem people have said ! rang up and told them they were wrong and they amended the log.

 

I suppose there will be times some individuals will be questioned but surely a simple one line per day log would be as easily accepted as a phone call. Nobody surely can say making an entry of a line daily even say once a week along the lines of

 

11th Sept Great Haywood

 

17th Sept Etruria

 

24th Sept Red Bull

 

is difficult, onerous or intrusive.

 

The fact this document (because I would make it paper) is continuous makes it more difficult to forge particularly when it goers back months and years.

Edited by Jerra
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I did point out that I don't believe I will ever need to prove my movements.

 

Are you picking on me?

 

No paranoia here wink.png

 

Rog

Of course I wasn't and I do see the humour in your reply. Just for the record I am not picking on anybody merely as always stating my opinion.

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In the event of historical evidence and records of previous 'overstaying' being needed for any any reason, they simply create and falsify them, as required at the time, . . . . . see Post #26.

That's awful, have you got a court transcript when they got found out to be falsifying records?

Edited by FadeToScarlet
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Nobody surely can say making an entry of a line daily even say once a week along the lines of

 

11th Sept Great Haywood

 

17th Sept Etruria

 

24th Sept Red Bull

 

 

What about the boaters whose daily log would say the same place 30 or 40 times consecutively?

 

Surely they would object to such a log...

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What about the boaters whose daily log would say the same place 30 or 40 times consecutively?

 

Surely they would object to such a log...

If a daily log was the same for 30 or 40 days then only a complete gamerstang (there is one for the pronunciation/dialect debate) would try to use it to prove they abide by the rules.

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If a daily log was the same for 30 or 40 days then only a complete gamerstang (there is one for the pronunciation/dialect debate) would try to use it to prove they abide by the rules.

 

 

Indeed, and there are plenty of them about. I'm sure they would object to your proposals. I was answering your assertion that surely no-one would object (although you didn't actually complete the sentence. Maybe you were going to write something else).

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