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Old terminology for port, starboard, fore and aft, ahead and astern


mross

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Nothing to do with boating, but a family member used to operate using knife and fork rather than right and left. I'm sure in all walks of life, socially and in trade, language has been moulded to suit local needs or desires. It was the 16th century before any form of standard english existed, so in the whole scheme of things, it's all quite new innit ;)

 

Rog

Hope they didn't have to teach any Americans to steer!

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Does anyone think these little stories are actually true or are they another one of the great tales that ex boaters tell while sitting in the pub holding court in front of gullible wannabe boatman or women I'm not sexist.

 

Darren

 

Yes, I believe what Mike tells me. As we are in his lounge when we meet he is hardly "holding court." I have no reason to believe that he is treating me as "gullible." I know him well enough now to know when he is teasing me.

Edited by Ray T
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Does anyone think these little stories are actually true or are they another one of the great tales that ex boaters tell while sitting in the pub holding court in front of gullible wannabe boatman or women I'm not sexist.

 

Darren

 

Having heard this particular tale so many times, and attributed to so many different children and families, I'm inclined to think to think the latter. When all's said and done, there are other items always to hand to put on the cabin top on the opposite side to the chimney and cans, like the mop, cabinshaft or stern-string to help a child learning to steer. Why use stuff that would be better made into a sandwich and eaten ?

Edited by Tony Dunkley
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So far, I have only received two alternatives for port and starboard - bread and cheese, chimney and bed. Surely there were others?

 

 

I had a work colleague whose parents worked on a Yorkshire Keel trading up the Humber from Hull to West Yorkshire before the war. . He told me that they had a dog kennel on one side of the roof, with a water barrel on the other, so the steering instructions were "Hard a Dog Kennel:, or "Hard a Watter Cask"

 

Howard

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So far, I have only received two alternatives for port and starboard - bread and cheese, chimney and bed. Surely there were others?

 

That's 'side-bed', as opposed to 'cross-bed', . . . and, no, the only [working] narrowboat equivalent of port and starboard, on the rare occasions when it was necessary to distinguish between the two, was 'chimney side' and 'side-bed side'.

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That's 'side-bed', as opposed to 'cross-bed', . . . and, no, the only [working] narrowboat equivalent of port and starboard, on the rare occasions when it was necessary to distinguish between the two, was 'chimney side' and 'side-bed side'.

I can understand chimney side as this would always be on the left to clear bridges. Am I right that a side bed would be opposite the stove? My boatman's cabin has a cross bed but could be used as a single side bed when not folded down. Side bed side sounds a bit long-winded?

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I can understand chimney side as this would always be on the left to clear bridges. Am I right that a side bed would be opposite the stove? My boatman's cabin has a cross bed but could be used as a single side bed when not folded down. Side bed side sounds a bit long-winded?

 

Yes, the side-bed was always dead opposite the range. 'Side-bed side' may sound a bit long winded, . . . but the side-bed was quite short !

How does the chimney being on the side it is help it to clear bridges when the towpath's on the side-bed side ?

Edited by Tony Dunkley
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As a parent would most defentley be standing next to the child whist they were steering I would hazard a guess the conversation went like this ...... Get over this way or get over that way. I very much doubt the child was left to steer a boat on his own while both parents were on either one of the other boats. And if they were I doubt the mum would be yelling bread or cheese at the child while he rounded a bend.

 

Darren

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As a parent would most defentley be standing next to the child whist they were steering I would hazard a guess the conversation went like this ...... Get over this way or get over that way. I very much doubt the child was left to steer a boat on his own while both parents were on either one of the other boats. And if they were I doubt the mum would be yelling bread or cheese at the child while he rounded a bend.

 

Darren

 

 

 

 

 

Jackie Lowe who was about 10 when this was taken.

 

Yes I know that the children were taught to work the boat as soon as possible

Edited by Ray T
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As a parent would most defentley be standing next to the child whist they were steering I would hazard a guess the conversation went like this ...... Get over this way or get over that way. I very much doubt the child was left to steer a boat on his own while both parents were on either one of the other boats. And if they were I doubt the mum would be yelling bread or cheese at the child while he rounded a bend.

 

Darren

 

On the rare occasions they needed to be given, instructions about which way to steer, whoever they were given to, were in fact 'hold in' or 'hold out'.

'Hold in' meant steer [the boat or boats] towards the 'inside' [towpath side] and 'hold out' meant steer towards the 'outside' [side opposite to the towpath] .

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I'm not sure how canal relevant the whole Port and Starboard terminology would have been. On larger waterways there would be serious consequences if a collision took place whereas on the cut it would usually be fairly tame and if serious maybe a dent.

 

Another term I hear used on the VHF on the Thames tideway is "would you like green to green?" which means passing on the 'wrong side' using the word 'green' instead of starboard.

Not sure if it would really translate into canal language though.

 

 

Green to Green is used virtually all over the world and it does convey an unambiguous message to both parties.

 

Howard

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In a tenuous connection to the bread/cheese directions, in the 1st war when highlanders were recruited from wee crofts up in the north, many had never been to school and, when being taught parade drill they would put straw in one boot and hay in the other and the marching orders were :hay foot straw foot.

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Green to Green is used virtually all over the world and it does convey an unambiguous message to both parties.

 

Howard

 

But NOT on continental waterways. There are specific rules within the code about passing starboard-starboard, and craft must have a 1m square board and flashing white light on the starboard side by the wheelhouse. This is activated by the vessel travelling upstream/uphill to signify that he is leaving a route for the downhill craft to pass starboard-starboard. It may be because he wants to stay on the inside of a turn to keep out of the fierce stream, or may be mandatory as there are signals indicating that. It is always the vessel travelling upstream that initiates the manoeuvre. He is obliged to keep out of the way of vessels travelling downstream, or in another rule he must allow the vessels travelling downstream a safe passage, but can do this by remaining on the "wrong" side of the waterway as long as he confirms he is doing this.

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But NOT on continental waterways. There are specific rules within the code about passing starboard-starboard, and craft must have a 1m square board and flashing white light on the starboard side by the wheelhouse. This is activated by the vessel travelling upstream/uphill to signify that he is leaving a route for the downhill craft to pass starboard-starboard. It may be because he wants to stay on the inside of a turn to keep out of the fierce stream, or may be mandatory as there are signals indicating that. It is always the vessel travelling upstream that initiates the manoeuvre. He is obliged to keep out of the way of vessels travelling downstream, or in another rule he must allow the vessels travelling downstream a safe passage, but can do this by remaining on the "wrong" side of the waterway as long as he confirms he is doing this.

Not certain but surely the board should be blue in colour, leading to the expression "blue boarding", happy to be corrected.

Phil

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Out of interest, if you haven't got cheese can you use a Dairylee triangle?

When I first started as a 10year old being at Stanton Iron works the bread & cheese was substituted for a piece of slag & a pebble & the term hold in to the slag meant steering the boat towards the bank on the slag side the term"Fan Hold" referd to in Tony's post was in the north pronounced as "Fan Alt" & Chuck back & Hold back were as he described, not a term but when I first started working I was " advised" to knock the motor boat into neutral when the "engine ole" doors were just in the "Bridge Ole" re engage forward when just clear of the bridge, with an empty pair the butty being on cross straps the forward motion of the butty would help "Shunt the Motor through, this worked better on the narrow canals bridges With an empty motor water was run into the bilge to pull the counter down flat on, the practices & terms differed between north & south & I remember a northern boater was sub contracted to london on the GU & he was extremely worried saying I dont want to go "up there" I"ll get lost & some of the other steerers said "they do things a funny way down that way" not being literate was possibly the cause of this fear.

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Not certain but surely the board should be blue in colour, leading to the expression "blue boarding", happy to be corrected.

Phil

 

Sorry, I forgot to mention colour but you are correct. It used to be a blue flag, but flags do get blown about in the wind and aren't necessarily visible. A flashing white light is required at night, but boats often use only that in the day as well.

 

the term"Fan Hold" referd to in Tony's post was in the north pronounced as "Fan Alt" & Chuck back & Hold back were as he described, not a term but when I first started working I was " advised" to knock the motor boat into neutral when the "engine ole" doors were just in the "Bridge Ole" re engage forward when just clear of the bridge, with an empty pair the butty being on cross straps the forward motion of the butty would help "Shunt the Motor through

 

Fan 'old signifies the propellor (fan) being sufficiently deep in the water to hold - to be effective. Knocking the boat out of gear as you describe is certainly the best way of going through a bridge 'ole. It works even without a butty. As a boat goes through the water it leaves a shallow hole behind it and then a small 'hump'. If you go fast into the bridge 'ole and knock the boat out of gear sharply as you describe the little hump catches you up and throws you though like you are on a surf wave - it's not really the butty pushing you through. It means you are far less likely to pick up the cr*p nice people have thrown into the bridge hole as you are temporarily out of gear, but also you barely lose any speed. It is nothing like "slowing down for a bridge" that you hear people say. It is particularly noticable if you are loaded and with a butty on a snatcher or snubber - if you try to go through without easing you will see the line line droop into the water as the butty catches you, but storm in and ease abruptly and the line will barely lose tension.

 

Tam

 

(sorry -we've wandered off of terminology here)

Edited by Tam & Di
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