Who is the oldest member?

[pete harrison]

 

Pete, better to be a has been than a never was.

Yep, I am very happy with what I have done. Happy days.

Edited September 8, 2016 by pete harrison

[alan_fincher]

I remain dubious about the term "thumb lining", as I think I always knew it as "gate lining", and my brother who regularly used to use the technique when coal baoting in the 1970s has I believe said the same in the past.

 

However what should be reliable sources like David Blagrove have been using "thumb lining" in articles and videos for some years now.

 

Perhaps it was a regional thing?

 

So do any of the old hands on here recall for definite what they called it? I can't recall if Tam has ever commented on the subject.

 

The different spellings of "Luby", (the version I have always gone for), are interesting. I guess because words like that were mostly spoken, and seldom written down, there may be no definitive spelling, particularly as many of those using them could not read or write.

[RLWP]

I remain dubious about the term "thumb lining", as I think I always knew it as "gate lining"

 

I'm not. The chances of a uniform language of the cut is practically zero, so both terms - and more - are likely to be correct

 

Richard

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Thumblining is where working boats used a line from the lubby (on top of the mast) to the gate rails to open the bottom gates when descending wide locks. The type of "knot" used held firm when the boats were pulling backwards. On moving out of the lock the "knot" loosened and the line fell into the hold of the boat.

 

The Knot isn't really a knot but the sort of half hitch around the gate rail.

 

I have a picture somewhere I'll go and look for it.

 

Here you go

 

163138_184477734916927_184474664917234_468892_5874194_n.JPG

 

2280457184_5731ab5ce0_o.jpg

 

4117thDec77.jpg

 

Photo's are not mine, ones found on the net.

Back in the early 70's, I watched a pair on the GU using thumblining and they used thumb knots presumably to stop what Ray calls half hitches slipping. I always assumed that it was called thumblining because of these knots. Fast forward 40 years and there is a David Blagrove video showing thumblining without thumb knots ...

[Tony Dunkley]

I remain dubious about the term "thumb lining", as I think I always knew it as "gate lining", and my brother who regularly used to use the technique when coal baoting in the 1970s has I believe said the same in the past.

 

 

So do any of the old hands on here recall for definite what they called it?

 

 

The terms 'thumbline' or 'thumb-lining' were definitely never spoken about or practiced by those who taught me how to work narrowboats, . . . [in no particular order, and only a few of the many] . . . Jack Monk, Arthur Bray, Ernie Kendall, Jim Collins, Percy Hambridge, Henry Grantham, Ken and Ted Ward, Ronny Green, Johnny Anderson, Ted Barrett(s) [ old and young], George Wain, Tom Humphries, Erne Humphries, Johnny Boswell, George Radford, Sam Horne, Sam Brooks, Alf Best, Bert Wallington, Ron Hough, Alf Wright, Jack Meredith, . . . and many, many more, far too numerous to list everyone.

 

Something that was used when necessary, however, was a 'thumb-string', which has nothing whatsover to do with pulling gates open, but was used from the stern T-stud of a loaded butty singling out from a downhill lock.

 

I haven't got time to type an explanation of the

way to work loaded boats singling out in downhill locks right now, but if enough people are sufficiently interested, then I'll try to find time to do so in the next day or two.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[howardang]

Back in the early 70's, I watched a pair on the GU using thumblining and they used thumb knots presumably to stop what Ray calls half hitches slipping. I always assumed that it was called thumblining because of these knots. Fast forward 40 years and there is a David Blagrove video showing thumblining without thumb knots ...

 

 

I have little knowledge of working boat practices and there are others on here who are far more knowledgeable than me who are able to explain them, but In broader terms, a thumb knot is an alternative name for an overhand knot. I think the term is more commonly used in the US than in the UK.

 

Howard

[alan_fincher]

 

The terms 'thumbline' or 'thumb-lining' were definitely never spoken about or practiced by those who taught me how to work narrowboats, . . . [in no particular order, and only a few of the many] . . . Jack Monk, Arthur Bray, Ernie Kendall, Jim Collins, Percy Hambridge, Henry Grantham, Ken and Ted Ward, Ronny Green, Johnny Anderson, Ted Barrett(s) [ old and young], George Wain, Tom Humphries, Erne Humphries, Sam Brooks, Bert Wallington, Ron Hough . . . and many, many more, far too numerous to list everyone.

 

Something that was used when necessary, however, was a 'thumb-string', which has nothing whatsover to do with pulling gates open, but was used from the stern T-stud of a loaded butty singling out from a downhill lock.

 

I haven't got time to type an explanation of the

way to work loaded boats singling out in downhill locks right now, but if enough people are sufficiently interested, then I'll try to find time to do so in the next day or two.

 

Thank you Tony,

 

I do seriously wonder if the bit I have highlighted in red may be what may have caused history to be re-written? Someone has started to write about a technique, but muddled their terms, and now those muddled terms are reproduced over and over as to what the technique was actually known as?

[X Alan W]

 

I fully understand Alan, I have been questioned by othe boaters for thumblining, for usuing the (rare) strapping posts on lock gates for closing the gate and stopping the boat, and for dropping padddles and running the bar through my hands. Their rational being that it damaged them and was "against the rules"

Goodness me David you have committed nearly all the sins at one go, It's a jolly good job you've sold your boat, you as a serial rule breaker would not be welcome any more Progress?

[RLWP]

I haven't got time to type an explanation of the

way to work loaded boats singling out in downhill locks right now, but if enough people are sufficiently interested, then I'll try to find time to do so in the next day or two.

 

Yes please

 

Richard

[Tony Dunkley]

 

Thank you Tony,

 

I do seriously wonder if the bit I have highlighted in red may be what may have caused history to be re-written? Someone has started to write about a technique, but muddled their terms, and now those muddled terms are reproduced over and over as to what the technique was actually known as?

 

Yes, I think that's very likely to be pretty well what's happened, but, sadly, the muddle, confusion and general ineptitude isn't limited to when the way narrowboats were worked is being either written or talked about.

Some video's I've seen with today's 'enthusiasts' trying to work a pair of boats, empty or loaded, are enough to make you [ me, that is] weep.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

 

The terms 'thumbline' or 'thumb-lining' were definitely never spoken about or practiced by those who taught me how to work narrowboats, . . . [in no particular order, and only a few of the many] . . . Jack Monk, Arthur Bray, Ernie Kendall, Jim Collins, Percy Hambridge, Henry Grantham, Ken and Ted Ward, Ronny Green, Johnny Anderson, Ted Barrett(s) [ old and young], George Wain, Tom Humphries, Erne Humphries, Sam Brooks, Alf Best, Bert Wallington, Ron Hough, Alf Wright, Jack Meredith, . . . and many, many more, far too numerous to list everyone.

 

Something that was used when necessary, however, was a 'thumb-string', which has nothing whatsover to do with pulling gates open, but was used from the stern T-stud of a loaded butty singling out from a downhill lock.

 

I haven't got time to type an explanation of the

way to work loaded boats singling out in downhill locks right now, but if enough people are sufficiently interested, then I'll try to find time to do so in the next day or two.

Am I right in thinking this technique, whatever it is called, was mainly used on the GU (and thus only after the 1930's) or was it more widespread?

 

 

I have little knowledge of working boat practices and there are others on here who are far more knowledgeable than me who are able to explain them, but In broader terms, a thumb knot is an alternative name for an overhand knot. I think the term is more commonly used in the US than in the UK.

 

Howard

Certainly both names were in use in this country some 60 years ago. My understanding is that they relate to the two main ways the knot is tied. However, it is much more common for people to say overhand knot rather than thumb knot.

 

Ashley (an American), who wrote the definitive work on knots, gives both and several other names besides.

 

Edited September 9, 2016 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Tony Dunkley]

Am I right in thinking this technique, whatever it is called, was mainly used on the GU (and thus only after the 1930's) or was it more widespread?

 

 

The need for thumb-strings would have arisen with the introduction of powered boats, steam or diesel, to work with and tow former horseboats as buttys on any canal with double locks, and then solely due to the tendency any powered boat has to draw any other boat which is very close alongside, along with it, and into it's own stern quarter.

 

A thumb-string prevents a loaded butty from being drawn across to the motor's side of a [double, or wide] lock, and being drawn along with the motor, 'nipping' it against the (motor's side) chamber wall while the motor is still only part way out of the lock. This only happens to any great effect with downhill loaded boats, and is most pronounced and troublesome if either the pound below the lock is down a few inches, or the lock is overdue for a stoppage and there's a lot of mud and rubbish in the bottom of the chamber.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[Tam & Di]

 

A thumb-string prevents a loaded butty from being drawn across to the motor's side of a [double, or wide] lock, and being drawn along with the motor, 'nipping' it against the (motor's side) chamber wall while the motor is still only part way out of the lock.

 

That was certainly my use of the term "thumb string". My recent boating has all been continental so I'm out of date as far as the UK is concerned, but there was a time when BW were removing the little thumb pins on the lockside up under the balance beam at the heel of the top gates that we put the thumb string onto as someone in the Watford office thought they were a trip hazard, so I don't know how many still exist! (I called them thumb pins, but it is possible I made up the term).

 

Tam

Edited September 10, 2016 by Tam & Di

[Tony Dunkley]

 

That was certainly my use of the term "thumb string". My recent boating has all been continental so I'm out of date as far as the UK is concerned, but there was a time when BW were removing the little thumb pins on the lockside up under the balance beam at the heel of the top gates that we put the thumb string onto as someone in the Watford office thought they were a trip hazard, so I don't know how many still exist! (I called them thumb pins, but it is possible I made up the term).

 

Tam

 

Yes, those pins that were cast into the top gate collar anchors were about the size of the average thumb, so I'd think there's a good probability that's how thumb-strings got their name.

Quite a few of them had got broken off over the years, often by accident when new gates were going in, so where that had happened, and if a thumb-string was needed, everybody used the centre [paddle] spindle on the gate instead.

[archie57]

Thumb strings not necessary on the "New Locks" though, leaving the lock with the motor will cause the butty to float back and pull it's own gate open with the mast rope

[Tony Dunkley]

Thumb strings not necessary on the "New Locks" though, leaving the lock with the motor will cause the butty to float back and pull it's own gate open with the mast rope

 

Don't quite know what you're getting at here ? The butty was always left to pull it's own gate open singling out loaded downhill in all the Junction locks in the same way, and you only needed a thumb-string if the lock bottom [chamber] was full-up, or the pound was well down, causing the butty to start going back just that bit sooner after the motor went ahead, and then to nip the motor to it's own side wall because it hadn't got far enough along before the butty's stern-end got drawn across the chamber as it began to get drawn along itself that bit sooner.

The most important thing was for the butty steerer to loose the thumb-string at just the right time so the butty wouldn't nip the motor to own side wall, but would be moving as fast as possible before the snatcher got picked up.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[bizzard]

This threads put years on me.

[archie57]

 

Don't quite know what you're getting at here ? The butty was always left to pull it's own gate open singling out loaded downhill in all the Junction locks in the same way, and you only needed a thumb-string if the lock bottom [chamber] was full-up, or the pound was well down, causing the butty to start going back just that bit sooner after the motor went ahead, and then to nip the motor to it's own side wall because it hadn't got far enough along before the butty's stern-end got drawn across the chamber as it began to get drawn along itself that bit sooner.

The most important thing was for the butty steerer to loose the thumb-string at just the right time so the butty wouldn't nip the motor to own side wall, but would be moving as fast as possible before the snatcher got picked up.

Exactly - the new locks are so wide and deep that the butty won't get drawn out alongside the motor

[Tam & Di]

Thumb strings not necessary on the "New Locks" though, leaving the lock with the motor will cause the butty to float back and pull it's own gate open with the mast rope

 

Careful! You've introduced a new element here - I used a mast line, but I'd hate to have to define the difference between strings, lines, straps and ropes. Off the top of my head though it is perhaps that rope is the generic word, but even there we always bought cotton line so it can't be as simple as that.

Certainly places like Chatham have rope walks and are known as a ropery if that helps.

We buy coils of rope there, but cut them into lengths for various lines.

[archie57]

Perhaps I should have called it a line!

[bizzard]

A country brought up friend of mine once asked me to throw him a loin. I told him, sorry you'll have to wait until I've been to the butchers this afternoon.

[Tony Dunkley]

Exactly - the new locks are so wide and deep that the butty won't get drawn out alongside the motor

 

I think we've ended up talking about different ''new'' locks here.

It sounds as though you meant the 'New Locks' between the top of Wigram's and the top of Knowle, but I wasn't sure if you were talking about the ''new'' locks down the Junction, which are not significantly different in size from any of the others back as far as the bottom of Braunston.

I don't know what name they go under in books and maps, but I've never heard the two locks either end of the short, straight pound at Nash Mill called anything other than the ''New 'uns".

[archie57]

Yes, I was referring to the 1934 locks on the Warwick canals