Best engine to replace BMC

[cuthound]

Hi Cuthound

Was this a recent swap, sounds a good price?

Interested in how it "transformed the boat"? And how the characteristics are different from the BMC?

Thanks

2013, so may be a little higher now. Why not call them for a quote 01604 858 685?

 

Transformed the boat by making it much smoother (far less vibration), quieter, and more fuel efficient (down from an average of 2 litres per hour to 1.5 litres per hour).

 

Best of all I understand from friends who still have a share in HS that once the initial overheating problems with air locks in calorifier were sorted, the engine has been completely reliable.

 

It also stops the boat quicker, due to its higher torque over the BMC.

 

Edited to remove a duplicate worm.

Edited August 12, 2016 by cuthound

[Peter Thornton]

It also stops the boat quicker, due to its higher torque over the BMC.

 

That might be useful !!!!

Edited August 12, 2016 by Peter Thornton

[lostnortherner]

Interesting that Kinver is undercooled because she is a Reeves shell. The majority of the Pat Buckle shelled boats that had an engine upgrade also had to have a cooling upgrade at a cost of around £800 if I remember correctly. It's still the same boat that is being pushed along so maybe the BMC is more efficient. I know the Nanni we have uses more fuel, about 20% more even though I use fewer revs.

 

I agree with David and others regarding recon. Some of the early Ownerships boats went down the recon route and found they started having problems after four or five years. You really do need to know it was done by an engineer rather than someone with an eye on their profit margin.

I suspect the over heating is as a result of the higher power output? She's fine on canals - its just when you are flat out on rivers that she overheats. Personally I don't go over about 1500/1600 rpm and it's fine. Those who have commented that she will overheat report they were running around 2000 rpm at the time.

 

The Beta is noticably more fuel efficient than the old BMC, and as other have said, much quieter, smoother and more reliable.

[cuthound]

Dharl of this forum bought my share in HS, and i am sure he will be able to confirm whether or not Honeystreet overheats on rivers or not.

[Richard T]

 

Out of interest, how long from start to finish?

 

It was done along with other work so time is difficult to asses and I was no longer involved with the boat. It was done at Calcutt and they took the engine and gear box out and rebuilt both. The rings had gone in the engine as it smoked really badly and no longer does so. I steered it the other week on the tidal Trent and it was running very sweetly.

[davem399]

Dharl of this forum bought my share in HS, and i am sure he will be able to confirm whether or not Honeystreet overheats on rivers or not.

I've not run Honeystreet on a real river yet unless you call the canalised Kennet from Aldermaston going west a river. No problems with overheating, and the Beta has proved to be reliable, probably approaching around 3000 hours on the clock now. One thing I've noticed is that it keeps its engine oil clearer than the BMC, still a nice golden colour on the dipstick.

[magnetman]

One thing I like with Beta marine is that they seem to always use the latest Kubota engines which in theory is good except lately they have been getting turbo diesel due to emission regs.

 

This may not apply to smaller units - mine is a 3.8 litre naturally aspirated 90hp unit - replacement seems to be 3.2 litre 85hp turbocharged unit.

 

If I were looking at a 58ft narrow goat I may also consider Nanni as my grandmother recommended them

[magnetman]

 

My mother had a Beta BV1505 in a 55ft narrow boat and did ten years of boating including pushing the tidal Thames with no worries. The equivalent seems to be the Beta 38 now.

 

Not a big engine but it was very reliable and durable.

[churchward]

 

It certainly does, it also depends on how much work is actually done, as some (so called) re-builds are little more than refurbishments.

 

The BMC 1.5 in our boat had done more than 20,000 hours and was decidedly tired, we had it re-built by Jonathon Hewitt at Union Canal Carriers in Braunston, and he did a first class job, for a very reasonable price. Everything that moved was either re-bored, re-ground, or replaced. It took quite a while, but the wait was worth it, he kept us informed about progress and we even got a DVD showing each stage of the re-build.

Quite so. All the components and tolerances need to be refurbished or replaced to bring the engine back to original factory spec. Good quality components when fitting new bits also matter. As does the skill and care of the person reassembling. All the good work can be compromised by a numpty with dirty/gritty hands wielding a spanner with too much enthusiasm or worse lack of care.

 

I can be also worth going a small step further and balancing the reciprocating weight eg the pistons and conrods to partially blue print the engine

[Jrtm]

I know its sounds odd but if you get a rebuild (build car engines for alfa and fiat) get yours done and make sure its yours that comes back reason i say this is you know your engine. If its not been cooked or worn too much its going to have good base to start from.

You never know what another person has done to theres.!

[peterboat]

It would be the Kubota engine for me as well the BMC engine is old very old. A new Kubota will meet the latest regs and if a DI will be easier to start and more economical due to DI over IDI efficiency things have moved on from the 1940s which is where the BMC has its origins

[churchward]

We put a Beta 43 in Kinver about 3 years ago. It cost about £7k for the job, and we managed to sell the scrap BMC back to Calcutt for a few hundred (I forget how much). Solved all our breakdowns and engine issues in one lump.

We do find it gets a bit hot flogging along rivers if you like to give it some, I suspect the skin tank is not really big enough, but it's not a problem really.

ABC at Alvechurch did it. There was about a month lead time, as Beta made engine mounts for us to fit the old BMC mountings.

That is the issue with fitting a more powerful engine and not looking at the cooling system. This is why I suggested further up that a Beta 38 may be a better option as it has similar power output to the BMC so the cooling system should cope OK.

[frangar]

 

ed - I seem to recall being warned off a boat with a Nanni diesel on here when we were looking to buy because of the use of a (prone to failure) cam belt rather than chain, but my memory may be dodgy on that.

You are thinking of Lombardini.....Nanni use the same Kubota base engine as beta with different marinising parts.

 

Lombardini seem to be more popular in sea going boats mainly because they are lighter due to using alloy castings....there's a few in narrowboats but they seem to be mainly older budget builds.

 

And yes you are right that they use a cam belt which needs changing...for the life of me I can't remember at what hours.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[alan_fincher]

It would be the Kubota engine for me as well the BMC engine is old very old. A new Kubota will meet the latest regs and if a DI will be easier to start and more economical due to DI over IDI efficiency things have moved on from the 1940s which is where the BMC has its origins

 

Arguable, surely?

 

The BMC B series engine didn't start production until into 1950s, I think, and the diesel possibly not until the later 1950s.

 

I'm no expert, but thought it was largely a new design, rather than being a rework of something older.

[churchward]

 

Arguable, surely?

 

The BMC B series engine didn't start production until into 1950s, I think, and the diesel possibly not until the later 1950s.

 

I'm no expert, but thought it was largely a new design, rather than being a rework of something older.

The BMC B series was as you say new in the 1950s but all these engine designs of the time were progressions and so have DNA so to speak from earlier designs. The closest was the 1200cc OHV used in the Austin Devon in 1947 which has origins in pre-war side valves. The diesel version in 1.5 form was built alongside the petrol in the 1950s but I think (not sure) the 1.8 diesel we know and love was a later conversion from the petrol engine in the 1970s for the Sherpa van.

[Guest]

You are thinking of Lombardini.....Nanni use the same Kubota base engine as beta with different marinising parts.

Lombardini seem to be more popular in sea going boats mainly because they are lighter due to using alloy castings....there's a few in narrowboats but they seem to be mainly older budget builds.

And yes you are right that they use a cam belt which needs changing...for the life of me I can't remember at what hours.

Cheers

Gareth

I could dig the thread up to confirm but yes I'm pretty sure now you are correct.

[Jrtm]

Tried a horse? Pretty reliable....

[Sea Dog]

Tried a horse? Pretty reliable....

A lot more maintenance than the average canal boat engine though. Plus, they're underpowered and a nightmare to steer on rivers, and oh boy do they go through the carrots!

[magnetman]

And don't forget you need carrier bags for the dung - 5p each

[Neil2]

I too have a biased opinion of the BMC, I wouldn't have another one given. Our previous boat had one and had we kept the boat I would definitely have had to change the engine, just too noisy and inefficient compared to modern day offerings. There simply is no comparison with todays engines and I can't think of a single reason why you would want to prolong the life of a BMC 1.8. The 1.5 is a different story but as others have said on reconditioning the problem is finding someone who knows how to do the job properly.

 

I've been talking to hire fleet operators recently and interestingly two of them spoke very highly of Isuzu. Another retired all their BMC units a few years back and had gone for Kubota (Beta) engines. I suspect with these large scale operators it's a question of who offers the best deal given that all Jap engines have good reputations.

 

Personally I'd go for the Bukh DV36 a proper boat engine but you won't get one of these for seven grand.

[alan_fincher]

Our previous boat had one and had we kept the boat I would definitely have had to change the engine, just too noisy and inefficient compared to modern day offerings.

 

Define inefficient? Fuel consumption, or something else?

 

Our 1.8 always used to return consumption figures in the 1.0 to 1.5 litres per hour range, despite being run quite hard quite often. This seems much the same as people quote for Beta, Isuzus, Nannis etc.

 

Why do you beliee a 1.5 is a significantly different prospect from a 1.8? (Not that I'm sure we have yet been told what the OP's boat currently has, unless I have missed a post that says so).

 

To be clear, I probably would go the "non BMC" route in this share boat, but I do think many people rubbish the BMCs for a whole host of reasons that actually often don't stand close scrutiny.

[Midnight]

I think there's a lot of sentiment in regard of the BMC. It was certainly my choice when I started to fit out Midnight. I got an old unit from a scrap Sherpa van and decided to rebuild it and marinize it myself. The local engineers did the biz on the bores, crankshaft, valves and head and kindly offered to assemble the whole unit and gearbox as part of the deal. I was delighted with the result but not as delighted as one of their other customers who made me an offer I couldn't refuse so I sold it and bought a Beta 43.

 

The Beta 43 is a great engine especially if you cruise on rivers as I do - a bit more grunt than the 38. But a word of warning! For the first 4 or 5 years I cruised with one eye on the temperature gauge. Overheating was an issue and I regularly had to vent the skin tank to prevent airlocks. It got a lot worse when I replaced the alternator with a Prestalite 110amp. Asking around the marina it seemed to be a common problem and the only remedy was to fit a second skin tank @ around £1000. Since then I have not even thought about watching the temperature. A much cleverer boater than I once told me a Beta 43 requires at least 7 square feet of skin tank I think he was probably correct.

[magnetman]

Another approach is to fit a "seagoing" type engine (I did this on my barge as previous engine was heat exchanger cooled with a wet exhaust although the boat also has skin tanks.)

 

Betamarine website has inland and seagoing sections. Basically same engines but with different cooling and exhaust arrangements.

 

 

For use only on canals its not necessary but if you spend much time on rivers it does prevent the overheating problem. You do need to have a well designed and easily cleaned mud box welded into the side of the swim so it does involve some extra engineering.

A wet exhaust can be quieter than dry as well (unless you used a hospital type silencer on a dry exhaust)

 

What would be ideal would be a switchable system to go from skin tank on canals to direct water cooling on rivers - that'd be great but a bit of a headache to sort out with two different exhaust systems and other complexities

 

Edit to rearrange

Edited August 13, 2016 by magnetman

[peterboat]

The BMC B series was as you say new in the 1950s but all these engine designs of the time were progressions and so have DNA so to speak from earlier designs. The closest was the 1200cc OHV used in the Austin Devon in 1947 which has origins in pre-war side valves. The diesel version in 1.5 form was built alongside the petrol in the 1950s but I think (not sure) the 1.8 diesel we know and love was a later conversion from the petrol engine in the 1970s for the Sherpa van.

The BMC "B" series was a 1500 petrol fitted in lots of cars and then dieseliesed for the Morris Oxford, as I said ancient and both are converted petrol's that failed badly in the vehicles that they were fitted in so were sold off the boat industry. We have had many Threads on these engines and I have never seen an industrial use and neither has David or his Dad Bob who both worked for the Factory

[Tony Brooks]

I have. I once went for a job interview at a company in Reading as an engineer. (say around the early/mid 1970s) They only dealt with industrial uses for the BMC 1.5 and they had racks of them ready for fitting into a variety of agricultural machines like crop dryers and so on. I lost interest in the job when I learned most went for export and it would involve extensive travelling.

 

I think they were also used in the smaller Nuffield tractors but not the horticultural ones that used a dieselfied 998cc A series.