valrene9600 Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 Two bottles on our boat for last eleven years. It must have been the boat builder who fitted the out the shell. Say the bottle deposit at that time was £5. Can we assume the bottle cost calor say £4 so they make a profit supplying you with a container to store the gas they sell you. Or do calor make a break even on the bottle to keep you buying their gas. Or do they make a loss on the bottle recuperating the cost of bottle after say 3\4 refils are purchased. Reading this thread I think only a complete bloody fool would try to refill his own bottles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 The instant you take it upon yourself to start refilling the bottle yourself, you have assumed the rights of the owner, and that is theft. You usually talk a lot of sense Dave but this is just plain tosh. Just because somebody re fills one does not prove they intend to deprive Calor of its ownership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 I'd liken it to sitting down at a cafe table, maybe an outside one, where there is a big sign up saying that only stuff purchased on the premises may be eaten. Then getting your own sandwiches out. The establishment's owner/staff may well tell you to leave as you're in breach of the (tacit) contract. But can you imagine them calling the police and demanding you be charged with theft of the table and chair you were sat at? I don't think so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayalld Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 You usually talk a lot of sense Dave but this is just plain tosh. Just because somebody re fills one does not prove they intend to deprive Calor of its ownership. A single refil wouldn't but buying a device to do it repeatedly and doing so shows intent that you don't intend to let Calir have the bottle back This is completely untrue, you are just making it up. Nope. Remind me, which of the 5 elements of theft is missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 A single refil wouldn't but buying a device to do it repeatedly and doing so shows intent that you don't intend to let Calir have the bottle back No,it doesn't. You could hand it back any time. If I fill a rental car with fuel that doesnt signal I intend to keep the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Ambrose Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 (edited) No,it doesn't. You could hand it back any time. If I fill a rental car with fuel that doesnt signal I intend to keep the car. That analogy doesn't work plus if you care to read the gas bottle it clearly states " Property of and to be filled by Calor only" so even if you have lost your rental agreement it indeed never had one it is explicitly brought to your attention that the bottle is NOT yours nor can you do with it what you wish Phil Edited August 13, 2016 by Phil Ambrose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 That analogy doesn't work plus if you care to read the gas bottle it clearly states " Property of and to be filled by Calor only" so even if you have lost your rental agreement it indeed never had one it is explicitly brought to your attention that the bottle is NOT yours nor can you do with it what you wish Phil Sure, but those are contractual terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 (edited) That analogy doesn't work plus if you care to read the gas bottle it clearly states " Property of and to be filled by Calor only" so even if you have lost your rental agreement it indeed never had one it is explicitly brought to your attention that the bottle is NOT yours nor can you do with it what you wish Phil We are talking about theft Phil, as in stealing something. You aren't stealing it when you fill it up. You might incur the wrath of Calor by filling it, and as a result if they find out you they may demand that you return it, fair enough then you've stolen it if you refuse to do so. . Edited August 13, 2016 by MJG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerra Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 To my simplistic mind things are fairly clear. 1. By using a gas cylinder whether stolen, found or acquired correctly you are by implication agreeing to the companies terms, as you know they would refuse to deal if you told them you didn't agree. 2. The hire contract is for the length of time it takes to empty the cylinder, then you take the cylinder back and get another one. This is the start of another contract (but without the need for a deposit). If you use the hire car analogy you take the car back and get another. 3. When your bottle is empty you decide to refill it yourself. The first contract has ended (see 1 above) and you have no intention of handing the bottle back. In fact you intend to use it for years to come (possibly past the stage where the company would have replaced it) and so are permanently depriving them of the item. Simplistic I know but to my tiny little mind a logical view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 Well I think I will file this under "ridiculous, fatuous and pointless arguments of CWDF" number 132. There has never been a prosecution for theft of a cylinder consequential to someone refilling it. Therefore whether or not it is in theory theft is of no consequence in the real world. There may be reasons why filling a cylinder yourself is a bad idea but the possibility of being prosecuted by the Crown for theft, isn't one of them. Over and out. (although we pilots never actually say that of course!). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Riley Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 Over and out. (although we pilots never actually say that of course!). Roger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 The Calor police; knocking on a door near you. Well I think I will file this under "ridiculous, fatuous and pointless arguments of CWDF" number 132. There has never been a prosecution for theft of a cylinder consequential to someone refilling it. Therefore whether or not it is in theory theft is of no consequence in the real world. There may be reasons why filling a cylinder yourself is a bad idea but the possibility of being prosecuted by the Crown for theft, isn't one of them. Over and out. (although we pilots never actually say that of course!). I think that sums it up really. It is something of a hypothetical argument. I used a 47kg bottle some years ago to make a receiver for a compressor, so await my trial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 The Calor police; knocking on a door near you. I think that sums it up really. It is something of a hypothetical argument. I used a 47kg bottle some years ago to make a receiver for a compressor, so await my trial They could save some court costs and do the pair of us at the same time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacet Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 A single refil wouldn't but buying a device to do it repeatedly and doing so shows intent that you don't intend to let Calir have the bottle back Nope. Remind me, which of the 5 elements of theft is missing? Appropriation. As a legitimate hirer of the bottle you are an owner (as is Calor) of the bottle. You are just using the bottle during the hire period, albeit in breach of a term of the civil contract. It might just be arguable that you are appropriating Calor's exclusive right to refill the bottle, but unless you are intending to deprive Calor of its reversionary interest (maybe painting the bottle or maybe making a long-term habit of refilling) you are not appropriating the bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Payne Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 What about if you keep empty ones on your boat for months? I have four, one full, one in use and two empty, the empties have been empty for months now... On the other hand though, i care not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottle Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 Roger! Would that be the cabin boy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 What about if you keep empty ones on your boat for months? I have four, one full, one in use and two empty, the empties have been empty for months now... On the other hand though, i care not. You will when the Calor police come a knocking on your door. Don't say you weren't warned They could save some court costs and do the pair of us at the same time We used to use fire extinguisher bodies for petrol tanks when banger racing, so I suspect I will be in trouble there too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Smith Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 It would be a good idea to have a large gas tank fitted to your boat and a gas boat to come and fill you up just like the fuel boats. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltysplash Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 Read my earlier post, and tell me exactly which element of theft is missing. The Dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another and With the intention of permenantly depriving the other of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 It would be a good idea to have a large gas tank fitted to your boat and a gas boat to come and fill you up just like the fuel boats. Neil Didn't one of the hire companies try a boat engine running on gas a few years back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Ambrose Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 (edited) The Dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another and With the intention of permenantly depriving the other of it. Just about sums it up, the world is full of unscrupulous cheapskates, happy that my conscious is clear.Phil Edited August 13, 2016 by Phil Ambrose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J R ALSOP Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 Coles Morton Marine had a few gas boats in the early 70's, didn't last long though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayalld Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 The Dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another and With the intention of permenantly depriving the other of it. So, you are saying ALL the elements are missing? Do you claim that a cas bottle is NOT property then? Or do you claim that it doesn't belong to Calor? Perhaps you claim that it hasn't been appropriated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 So, you are saying ALL the elements are missing? Do you claim that a cas bottle is NOT property then? Or do you claim that it doesn't belong to Calor? Perhaps you claim that it hasn't been appropriated. I don't think you can say its been appropriated, because it was hired to them in the first place. Also the "permanently deprive" bit isn't met. For example, if I hire a car and the hire agreement says I can't tow with it, if I fitted a towbar and towed something, the hire firm couldn't then claim its been stolen. They could claim a contractual dispute (and civil damages), and I'd be subject to other laws such as insurance, towing weights, etc. But not theft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayalld Posted August 14, 2016 Report Share Posted August 14, 2016 I don't think you can say its been appropriated, because it was hired to them in the first place. Also the "permanently deprive" bit isn't met. For example, if I hire a car and the hire agreement says I can't tow with it, if I fitted a towbar and towed something, the hire firm couldn't then claim its been stolen. They could claim a contractual dispute (and civil damages), and I'd be subject to other laws such as insurance, towing weights, etc. But not theft. The fact that it was hired to you isn't material. You were hired agas bottle for specific purposes, and you are now going beyond those purposes. You are treating the gas bottle as if you own it, because you have overridden the rights of the owner. Appropriates isn't remotely arguable. The only thing that is arguable is the intent to permanently deprive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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