Filling gas bottles

[valrene9600]

Two bottles on our boat for last eleven years. It must have been the boat builder who fitted the out the shell.

Say the bottle deposit at that time was £5. Can we assume the bottle cost calor say £4 so they make a profit supplying you with a container to store the gas they sell you.

 

Or do calor make a break even on the bottle to keep you buying their gas.

 

Or do they make a loss on the bottle recuperating the cost of bottle after say 3\4 refils are purchased.

 

Reading this thread I think only a complete bloody fool would try to refill his own bottles.

[Guest]

The instant you take it upon yourself to start refilling the bottle yourself, you have assumed the rights of the owner, and that is theft.

You usually talk a lot of sense Dave but this is just plain tosh.

 

Just because somebody re fills one does not prove they intend to deprive Calor of its ownership.

[nicknorman]

I'd liken it to sitting down at a cafe table, maybe an outside one, where there is a big sign up saying that only stuff purchased on the premises may be eaten. Then getting your own sandwiches out. The establishment's owner/staff may well tell you to leave as you're in breach of the (tacit) contract. But can you imagine them calling the police and demanding you be charged with theft of the table and chair you were sat at? I don't think so!

[mayalld]

You usually talk a lot of sense Dave but this is just plain tosh.

 

Just because somebody re fills one does not prove they intend to deprive Calor of its ownership.

A single refil wouldn't but buying a device to do it repeatedly and doing so shows intent that you don't intend to let Calir have the bottle back

This is completely untrue, you are just making it up.

Nope.

 

Remind me, which of the 5 elements of theft is missing?

[Guest]

A single refil wouldn't but buying a device to do it repeatedly and doing so shows intent that you don't intend to let Calir have the bottle back

No,it doesn't. You could hand it back any time.

 

If I fill a rental car with fuel that doesnt signal I intend to keep the car.

[Phil Ambrose]

No,it doesn't. You could hand it back any time.

 

If I fill a rental car with fuel that doesnt signal I intend to keep the car.

That analogy doesn't work plus if you care to read the gas bottle it clearly states " Property of and to be filled by Calor only" so even if you have lost your rental agreement it indeed never had one it is explicitly brought to your attention that the bottle is NOT yours nor can you do with it what you wish

Phil

Edited August 13, 2016 by Phil Ambrose

[nicknorman]

That analogy doesn't work plus if you care to read the gas bottle it clearly states " Property of and to be filled by Calor only" so even if you have lost your rental agreement it indeed never had one it is explicitly brought to your attention that the bottle is NOT yours nor can you do with it what you wish

Phil

Sure, but those are contractual terms.

[Guest]

That analogy doesn't work plus if you care to read the gas bottle it clearly states " Property of and to be filled by Calor only" so even if you have lost your rental agreement it indeed never had one it is explicitly brought to your attention that the bottle is NOT yours nor can you do with it what you wish

Phil

We are talking about theft Phil, as in stealing something. You aren't stealing it when you fill it up. You might incur the wrath of Calor by filling it, and as a result if they find out you they may demand that you return it, fair enough then you've stolen it if you refuse to do so.

 

.

Edited August 13, 2016 by MJG

[Jerra]

To my simplistic mind things are fairly clear.

 

1. By using a gas cylinder whether stolen, found or acquired correctly you are by implication agreeing to the companies terms, as you know they would refuse to deal if you told them you didn't agree.

 

2. The hire contract is for the length of time it takes to empty the cylinder, then you take the cylinder back and get another one. This is the start of another contract (but without the need for a deposit). If you use the hire car analogy you take the car back and get another.

 

3. When your bottle is empty you decide to refill it yourself. The first contract has ended (see 1 above) and you have no intention of handing the bottle back. In fact you intend to use it for years to come (possibly past the stage where the company would have replaced it) and so are permanently depriving them of the item.

 

Simplistic I know but to my tiny little mind a logical view.

[nicknorman]

Well I think I will file this under "ridiculous, fatuous and pointless arguments of CWDF" number 132. There has never been a prosecution for theft of a cylinder consequential to someone refilling it. Therefore whether or not it is in theory theft is of no consequence in the real world. There may be reasons why filling a cylinder yourself is a bad idea but the possibility of being prosecuted by the Crown for theft, isn't one of them.

 

Over and out.

 

(although we pilots never actually say that of course!).

[Jim Riley]

 

 

Over and out.

 

(although we pilots never actually say that of course!).

 

Roger!

[Guest]

The Calor police; knocking on a door near you.

Well I think I will file this under "ridiculous, fatuous and pointless arguments of CWDF" number 132. There has never been a prosecution for theft of a cylinder consequential to someone refilling it. Therefore whether or not it is in theory theft is of no consequence in the real world. There may be reasons why filling a cylinder yourself is a bad idea but the possibility of being prosecuted by the Crown for theft, isn't one of them.

 

Over and out.

 

(although we pilots never actually say that of course!).

I think that sums it up really. It is something of a hypothetical argument.

I used a 47kg bottle some years ago to make a receiver for a compressor, so await my trial

[gazza]

The Calor police; knocking on a door near you.

 

I think that sums it up really. It is something of a hypothetical argument.

I used a 47kg bottle some years ago to make a receiver for a compressor, so await my trial

They could save some court costs and do the pair of us at the same time

[Tacet]

A single refil wouldn't but buying a device to do it repeatedly and doing so shows intent that you don't intend to let Calir have the bottle back

 

Nope.

 

Remind me, which of the 5 elements of theft is missing?

 

 

Appropriation.

 

As a legitimate hirer of the bottle you are an owner (as is Calor) of the bottle. You are just using the bottle during the hire period, albeit in breach of a term of the civil contract. It might just be arguable that you are appropriating Calor's exclusive right to refill the bottle, but unless you are intending to deprive Calor of its reversionary interest (maybe painting the bottle or maybe making a long-term habit of refilling) you are not appropriating the bottle.

[Dave Payne]

What about if you keep empty ones on your boat for months?

 

I have four, one full, one in use and two empty, the empties have been empty for months now...

 

On the other hand though, i care not.

[bottle]

 

Roger!

 

Would that be the cabin boy?

[Guest]

What about if you keep empty ones on your boat for months?

 

I have four, one full, one in use and two empty, the empties have been empty for months now...

 

On the other hand though, i care not.

You will when the Calor police come a knocking on your door. Don't say you weren't warned

They could save some court costs and do the pair of us at the same time

We used to use fire extinguisher bodies for petrol tanks when banger racing, so I suspect I will be in trouble there too?

[Neil Smith]

It would be a good idea to have a large gas tank fitted to your boat and a gas boat to come and fill you up just like the fuel boats.

 

Neil

[saltysplash]

 

Read my earlier post, and tell me exactly which element of theft is missing.

The Dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another

and

With the intention of permenantly depriving the other of it.

[ditchcrawler]

It would be a good idea to have a large gas tank fitted to your boat and a gas boat to come and fill you up just like the fuel boats.

 

Neil

Didn't one of the hire companies try a boat engine running on gas a few years back?

[Phil Ambrose]

The Dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another

and

With the intention of permenantly depriving the other of it.

Just about sums it up, the world is full of unscrupulous cheapskates, happy that my conscious is clear.

Phil

Edited August 13, 2016 by Phil Ambrose

[J R ALSOP]

Coles Morton Marine had a few gas boats in the early 70's, didn't last long though.

[mayalld]

The Dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another

and

With the intention of permenantly depriving the other of it.

So, you are saying ALL the elements are missing?

 

Do you claim that a cas bottle is NOT property then?

 

Or do you claim that it doesn't belong to Calor?

 

Perhaps you claim that it hasn't been appropriated.

[Paul C]

So, you are saying ALL the elements are missing?

 

Do you claim that a cas bottle is NOT property then?

 

Or do you claim that it doesn't belong to Calor?

 

Perhaps you claim that it hasn't been appropriated.

 

I don't think you can say its been appropriated, because it was hired to them in the first place. Also the "permanently deprive" bit isn't met.

 

For example, if I hire a car and the hire agreement says I can't tow with it, if I fitted a towbar and towed something, the hire firm couldn't then claim its been stolen. They could claim a contractual dispute (and civil damages), and I'd be subject to other laws such as insurance, towing weights, etc. But not theft.

[mayalld]

 

I don't think you can say its been appropriated, because it was hired to them in the first place. Also the "permanently deprive" bit isn't met.

 

For example, if I hire a car and the hire agreement says I can't tow with it, if I fitted a towbar and towed something, the hire firm couldn't then claim its been stolen. They could claim a contractual dispute (and civil damages), and I'd be subject to other laws such as insurance, towing weights, etc. But not theft.

The fact that it was hired to you isn't material. You were hired agas bottle for specific purposes, and you are now going beyond those purposes. You are treating the gas bottle as if you own it, because you have overridden the rights of the owner.

 

Appropriates isn't remotely arguable.

 

The only thing that is arguable is the intent to permanently deprive