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Filling gas bottles


ChimneyChain

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I have several bottles for caravan and boat and a couple spare. Some were found in t'cut, a couple inherited and a couple came with caravan. I've swapped for different sizes and gases over the years. I've never had an agreement or paid for a bottle. Is the "contract" refreshed ton each refill? But I just go and swap a bottle, no paperwork involved. So, danger aside, what contract would I be breaking? How many of you have an original contract, how many in the same position as me?

It's very simple, the gas bottle belongs to the gas company whose name is on the bottle, it is not your bottle, never will be no matter how it came into your possession.

Phil

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Yes he is. If you are bottling honey for your own use or to give away you are free to use any container you like. If you are bottling it for sale, reuse of old jars is discouraged, but is not prohibited provided they are free of cracks/chips and have been properly cleaned. What can get you into trouble is reusing screw top lids, as these are deemed not to be cleanable.

 

David

(Beekeper)

Sorry yes I was assuming most bee keepers try to defray costs by selling honey and as we were discussing businesses I didn't think to spell that out.

 

Ex Bee Keeper.

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Can I pose a question 2 13kg proper sold as such refillable gas bottles fitted & connected to a remote filler by the company selling the bottles who have the proper certification ( in this case a Camping Car ) You connect to the GPL pump in the same manner as a GPL fueled vehicle, the bottle cuts off the fill at the required 80%.Is it illegal to carry out this task in the UK, the reason for my question is I planned to visit the UK using my camper, but if I cannot get GPL/LPG I guess the trip is off I have filled in France, Spain,Portugal, Italy; Croatia, Slovakia, Greece, Turkey, Morocco, without any problems am I going to be shot down by the country of my birth.

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Can I pose a question 2 13kg proper sold as such refillable gas bottles fitted & connected to a remote filler by the company selling the bottles who have the proper certification ( in this case a Camping Car ) You connect to the GPL pump in the same manner as a GPL fueled vehicle, the bottle cuts off the fill at the required 80%.Is it illegal to carry out this task in the UK, the reason for my question is I planned to visit the UK using my camper, but if I cannot get GPL/LPG I guess the trip is off I have filled in France, Spain,Portugal, Italy; Croatia, Slovakia, Greece, Turkey, Morocco, without any problems am I going to be shot down by the country of my birth.

 

Purely my personal 'guess'.

 

If your gas bottles are 'wired in' and you have an external (standard type) of gas socket (as per any car with an integral gas tank) how is the garage to know what the 'socket' leads to ?

 

I do notice fewer and fewer garages selling LPG (on the pump) than there used to be.

There has not been the take-up of LPG that was expected and I have seen a couple of our local garages remove the LPG pump.

If the supply of gas is make-or-break to the trip It may be worth doing some research as the availability where you want to travel to.

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Purely my personal 'guess'.

 

If your gas bottles are 'wired in' and you have an external (standard type) of gas socket (as per any car with an integral gas tank) how is the garage to know what the 'socket' leads to ?

 

I do notice fewer and fewer garages selling LPG (on the pump) than there used to be.

There has not been the take-up of LPG that was expected and I have seen a couple of our local garages remove the LPG pump.

If the supply of gas is make-or-break to the trip It may be worth doing some research as the availability where you want to travel to.

 

Definitely - and by stark contrast where I live we have a plethora of Calor retailers. (though of course I recognise this might not be the same everywhere) I cant think of one local forecourt that sells LPG.

 

LPG as a fuel for vehicles has definitely not taken off as some expected it to, however who knows what will happen as diesel use becomes increasingly 'demonised' and people still need powerful torquey engines, we might yet see a resurgence.

Edited by MJG
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No we can't agree because one of your justifications of why it was illeagal related to 'you could be charged for theft' in the follow up post, which is precisely why this debate began.

 

I think it's potentially illeagal for other reasons, I think the theft issue is irrelavent.

 

So in fact what I actually think we should do is agree to disagree. smile.png

I suppose we should then but given that we both are saying it is unlawful to do it I rather thought we had agreed on something particularly in the first place I had stated potential theft as ONE of the reasons for it being illegal listing H&S, weights & measures and Consumer law as amongst the probabilities.

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Can I pose a question 2 13kg proper sold as such refillable gas bottles fitted & connected to a remote filler by the company selling the bottles who have the proper certification ( in this case a Camping Car ) You connect to the GPL pump in the same manner as a GPL fueled vehicle, the bottle cuts off the fill at the required 80%.Is it illegal to carry out this task in the UK, the reason for my question is I planned to visit the UK using my camper, but if I cannot get GPL/LPG I guess the trip is off I have filled in France, Spain,Portugal, Italy; Croatia, Slovakia, Greece, Turkey, Morocco, without any problems am I going to be shot down by the country of my birth.

 

It is not illegal but some garages/supermarkets do not understand the difference between purpose designed refillable bottle systems and just 'ordinary' gas bottles and have put a ban on 'gas bottles' the poor attendants only see bottles and do not understand the difference.

 

See post #16 and for more info try one of the Motor-home sites/forums, do a search as it comes up quite often. wink.png

 

http://forums.motorhomefacts.com/index.php

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/5/

 

http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/

 

You may have to register but not to search and look.

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Can I pose a question 2 13kg proper sold as such refillable gas bottles fitted & connected to a remote filler by the company selling the bottles who have the proper certification ( in this case a Camping Car ) You connect to the GPL pump in the same manner as a GPL fueled vehicle, the bottle cuts off the fill at the required 80%.Is it illegal to carry out this task in the UK, the reason for my question is I planned to visit the UK using my camper, but if I cannot get GPL/LPG I guess the trip is off I have filled in France, Spain,Portugal, Italy; Croatia, Slovakia, Greece, Turkey, Morocco, without any problems am I going to be shot down by the country of my birth.

Having refillable bottles permanently fitted to a vehicle with a permanent external filler device (as used by LPG converted cars) with an anti overfill is the preferred method in the UK as with most EU countries. The law essentially here for this is the same as those throughout the EU it is just the refilling of LPG directly into bottles via an adapter (particularly rented ones eg from Calor) that is a no-no.

 

The advice to garages selling LPG refill for vehicles etc. I believe has been to refuse all direct bottle refills due to the several different types of bottle on the market avoiding the need to train staff in recognising what is what. So, unlike some countries bottles made for self refill could be refused too when an owner tries to refill them directly but permanent fixture with car style external refill is OK.

Edited by churchward
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Can I pose a question 2 13kg proper sold as such refillable gas bottles fitted & connected to a remote filler by the company selling the bottles who have the proper certification ( in this case a Camping Car ) You connect to the GPL pump in the same manner as a GPL fueled vehicle, the bottle cuts off the fill at the required 80%.Is it illegal to carry out this task in the UK, the reason for my question is I planned to visit the UK using my camper, but if I cannot get GPL/LPG I guess the trip is off I have filled in France, Spain,Portugal, Italy; Croatia, Slovakia, Greece, Turkey, Morocco, without any problems am I going to be shot down by the country of my birth.

 

Should be okay, the petrol stations selling LPG are fine with fixed installations.

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No we can't agree because one of your justifications of why it was illeagal related to 'you could be charged for theft' in the follow up post, which is precisely why this debate began.

 

I think it's potentially illeagal for other reasons, I think the theft issue is irrelavent.

 

So in fact what I actually think we should do is agree to disagree. smile.png

 

Martin,

 

it is probably fair to say that;

 

1) There are other offences committed when one of these devices is used to refill a gas bottle

2) It is probable that the CPS would favour those offences, because prosecuting somebody for doing something stupidly dangerous is an easy conviction.

3) Did I mention that using these devices is stupidly dangerous? I did? Well, what the hell, worth saying twice anyway.

4) Notwithstanding all that, it is by a strict interpretation of the law Theft (and I will explain later)

5) If the relevant authorities lose their appetite for safety related prosecutions, Calor have very little clout to push for safety related prosecutions here, but they CAN report a theft

 

So, for the sake of completeness, and not claiming that this is the line that will ever be taken;

 

Why is it theft?

 

Let us consider the Theft Act 1968;

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60

 

A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it

 

The Act then helpfully goes on to offer guidance as to what exactly each of those 5 elements means. If any single element is missing, it isn't theft. If all 5 are present, it is theft.

 

So;

 

Dishonestly

Would anybody care to advance an argument that says doing something that the owner of the bottle has explicitly forbidden, and doing so for pecuniary advantage is an honest act. I think that we can be fairly clear that refilling a bottle is dishonest.

 

Appropriates

Here the act is very helpful; Any assumption by a person of the rights of an owner amounts to an appropriation, and this includes, where he has come by the property (innocently or not) without stealing it, any later assumption of a right to it by keeping or dealing with it as owner. It is very clear that at the point where he commits an act in relation to a hired bottle that the owner has reserved to himself, he is assuming the rights of the owner. He has clearly appropriated the bottle.

 

Property

Very easy. This is a tangible object. It is property.

 

Belonging to another

Slightly more complex, because the act recognises various shades of belonging, but they aren't relevant here, because it is clear that the property here does belong to another.

 

With the intention of permanently depriving the other of it

Now, here we have what is ALWAYS the most difficult part of proving theft (which is why we have the offence of Taking Without Consent, because joyriders can claim that once they had finished, they would abandon the car for it to be recovered).

 

The Act offers us some help;

 

(1) A person appropriating property belonging to another without meaning the other permanently to lose the thing itself is nevertheless to be regarded as having the intention of permanently depriving the other of it if his intention is to treat the thing as his own to dispose of regardless of the other’s rights; and a borrowing or lending of it may amount to so treating it if, but only if, the borrowing or lending is for a period and in circumstances making it equivalent to an outright taking or disposal.

(2) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1) above, where a person, having possession or control (lawfully or not) of property belonging to another, parts with the property under a condition as to its return which he may not be able to perform, this (if done for purposes of his own and without the other’s authority) amounts to treating the property as his own to dispose of regardless of the other’s rights.

So, with those wise words, does refilling gas bottles amount to an intention to "permanently deprive"?

I would suggest that if I borrow one of these (stupid) devices, and use it to refill a bottle, the offence isn't proven. If I buy one of these (stupid) devices, I have clearly shown an intention to continue to refill the bottle, which may amount to the intention to permanently deprive.

Potentially, Calor could run with the theft angle very nicely indeed. At present, if you attempt to refill a bottle you are refused. Calor could very easily put a "bounty" on refill attempts.

All they would need to do is introduce a scheme with their agents to impound any bottles where a refill attempt was made, and pay the filling station a tenner for each one. Anybody who refused to hand over the bottle WOULD most certainly have stolen it.

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I will await the first prosecution for'theft' with interest. However you have straight away introduced a currently non existent step into the process in your final paragraph in order to bolster a likelihood that it will be considered theft in a way that it currently wouldn't be.

Edited by MJG
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I will await the first prosecution for'theft' with interest. However you have straight away introduced a currently non existent step into the process in your final paragraph in order to bolster a likelihood that it will be considered theft in a way that it currently wouldn't be.

 

Indeed I have!

 

For as long as there continue to be prosecutions for H&S offences, they won't prosecute for theft.

 

It is my view that simply buying the adaptor and using it is 95% certain to warrant a theft conviction if they tried it. With the extra step, it would make it 100%.

 

I do wonder, however that Calor seem reluctant to prosecute those who cut the bottles up and turn them into something else.

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Indeed I have!

 

For as long as there continue to be prosecutions for H&S offences, they won't prosecute for theft.

 

It is my view that simply buying the adaptor and using it is 95% certain to warrant a theft conviction if they tried it. With the extra step, it would make it 100%.

 

I do wonder, however that Calor seem reluctant to prosecute those who cut the bottles up and turn them into something else.

As you have nicely set out it is still theft even without your "additional step" as it conforms to the definition of theft although a theft untried in court perhaps. Although we don't know if it has or hasn't been.

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What an amazing load of bullshit and twaddle on this thread. I am reminded of the folks who say "ooh, you can't do that, it's against a health and safety" without having a clue what they are on about, never having read any H&S legislation, or the folks who say "you can't do that, it would invalidate your insurance" without having a clue what terms and conditions are extant in the other person's insurance policy. It is also like the folks who say "OMG you can't possibly do any work on gas in your house, you'll go straight to prison" - of course they have never read the GSIUR law.

 

It may well be unlawful for the garage to sell you gas into a cylinder. It certainly isn't theft (assuming you pay for it!) but unless someone can cite a specific paragraph of a specific law that makes it "unlawful" to refill a cylinder, I remain firmly of the belief that it is a breach of contract for which Calor (can't "prosecute" as its not a criminal matter) could sue and in all probability merely have their cylinder returned. Although how they would ever know remains a mystery to me.

Edited by nicknorman
  • Greenie 2
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What an amazing load of bullshit and twaddle on this thread. I am reminded of the folks who say "ooh, you can't do that, it's against a health and safety" without having a clue what they are on about, never having read any H&S legislation, or the folks who say "you can't do that, it would invalidate your insurance" without having a clue what terms and conditions are extant in the other person's insurance policy. It is also like the folks who say "OMG you can't possibly do any work on gas in your house, you'll go straight to prison" - of course they have never read the GSIUR law.

 

It may well be unlawful for the garage to sell you gas into a cylinder. It certainly isn't theft (assuming you pay for it!) but unless someone can cite a specific paragraph of a specific law that makes it "unlawful" to refill a cylinder, I remain firmly of the belief that it is a breach of contract for which Calor (can't "prosecute" as its not a criminal matter) could sue and in all probability merely have their cylinder returned. Although how they would ever know remains a mystery to me.

No one has said that it would be theft of the gas.

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No one has said that it would be theft of the gas.

Well it clearly isn't theft of the bottle since you have been given it by calor. Yes with a contract that says you can't refil it (presumably) and if you are in default of that contract they are entitled to ask for it back. Only if you failed to give it back after a court ordered you to, would it be theft (or more likely, contempt of court).

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Well it clearly isn't theft of the bottle since you have been given it by calor. Yes with a contract that says you can't refil it (presumably) and if you are in default of that contract they are entitled to ask for it back. Only if you failed to give it back after a court ordered you to, would it be theft (or more likely, contempt of court).

You actually enter into a hire or rental agreement with calor when using one of their bottles (unless you find some in a layby like I did :) )

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You actually enter into a hire or rental agreement with calor when using one of their bottles (unless you find some in a layby like I did :) )

Yes I know. But let's say I hire a car. The rental agreement says I mustn't drive it off road. If I take it back covered in mud and grass it is obvious I've breached the contract and they can seek redress, but I haven't stolen it.

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Yes I know. But let's say I hire a car. The rental agreement says I mustn't drive it off road. If I take it back covered in mud and grass it is obvious I've breached the contract and they can seek redress, but I haven't stolen it.

But if you had hired the car onto someone else during the hire period?

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