Filling gas bottles

[RLWP]

Not quite, if you scroll back a bit you will see that it was suggested filling them could result in being prosecuted for theft.

 

That was in the first document:

 

 

 

• Unlawful filling – There have been some instances of people unlawfully filling Calor cylinders. Any unauthorised person filling Calor gas cylinders is both acting unlawfully and irresponsibly and is putting themselves and members of the public at risk of serious injury or even death. Calor has taken successful court action against individuals for such unauthorised filling.

 

Richard

 

MORE: I guess your argument would be that they have prosecuted - but not clearly for theft

Edited August 11, 2016 by RLWP

[churchward]

Not quite, if you scroll back a bit you will see that it was suggested filling them could result in being prosecuted for theft.

 

Clearly stealing a load of unused or even used cylinders meets that criteria.

 

I don't accept that filling two empty wine bottles is theft of the bottles, this being your argument as I understand it.

It would be theft if you don't own the bottles and you have deprived the owner of their property it is the same principle.

 

Apart from your opinion where is you evidence and references that it is OK to self refill a hired LPG bottle owned by Calor or whoever?

 

http://www.safefill.co.uk/refilling-retailers.html

 

These guys also say it is illegal of course they are not entirely neutral being suppliers of refillable LPG bottles.

 

They say...

 

"The refilling of rented gas cylinders is illegal and could see you prosecuted for theft; it’s also extremely dangerous. Quite rightly the industry has serious concerns about this practice and wants to stamp it out. So do we – and that’s why we designed the Safefill cylinder to be safe and easy to refill. ..."

Edited August 11, 2016 by churchward

[Guest]

That was in the first document:

 

 

 

Richard

 

MORE: I guess your argument would be that they have prosecuted - but not clearly for theft

Exactly! I am happy to acknowledge (and have) the health and safety aspects and am not surprised that somebody has been prosecuted for that.

 

Quite why there is a need to manufacture some none existent offence of 'theft' for filling them when there is clearly a logical alternative is well......what can I say.

[RLWP]

Quite why there is a need to manufacture some none existent offence of 'theft' for filling them when there is clearly a logical alternative is well......what can I say.

 

We don't know what the people refilling cylinders were prosecuted for

 

Richard

[Guest]

It would be theft if you don't own the bottles and you have deprived the owner of their property it is the same principle.

 

Apart from your opinion where is you evidence and references that it is OK to self refill a hired LPG bottle owned by Calor or whoever?

 

http://www.safefill.co.uk/refilling-retailers.html

 

These guys also say it is illegal of course they are not entirely neutral being suppliers of refillable LPG bottles.

 

They say...

 

"The refilling of rented gas cylinders is illegal and could see you prosecuted for theft; it’s also extremely dangerous. Quite rightly the industry has serious concerns about this practice and wants to stamp it out. So do we – and that’s why we designed the Safefill cylinder to be safe and easy to refill. ..."

Where have I said it's ok to refill cylinders please.

 

I merely challenge the assertion it's theft, and have yet to see any real hard evidence that it is.

We don't know what the people refilling cylinders were prosecuted for

 

Richard

Exactly.

[churchward]

Where have I said it's ok to refill cylinders please.

 

I merely challenge the assertion it's theft, and have yet to see any real hard evidence that it is.

 

Exactly.

I am not accusing you of anything I am trying to show some references to support my original point in post #28

 

"It is illegal in the UK to self refill a rented gas bottle (e.g. a Calor bottle)"

 

and also the point that to use the calor (or whoever) supplied bottle for your won purposes ie refill it yourself can be considered theft not just by me but by several people in the industry.

 

[Paul C]

Its a criminal offence under the Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 2002

 

BUT the offence would be committed by the garage/filling station, not the person filling it. In the above law, there is a requirement to do a proper assessment. The Trade Body which covers most filling stations has done a standardised one, which prohibits portable containers being refilled (irrespective of whether it has an overfill protection device) but allows tanks securely attached to a vehicle to be filled (eg an LPG powered car or a motorhome with permanently installed LPG domestic tank).

[RLWP]

http://hvpmag.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/2031/Engineer_in_court_over_dangerous_LPG_cylinder_adaptors.html

 

 

Alan Middleton, 60, of Barnoldswick Road, Higherford, pleaded guilty to an offence under the Pressure Equipment Regulations 1999 at Preston Magistrates Court on 30 October.

 

Richard

[gazza]

On the back of the shortage of Calor 4.5kg bottles I have organised a camping gaz 907 cylinder and regulator adaptor for emergency use, hideously expensive but a lot less hassle than farting about trying to fill from one bottle to the other or using autogas LPG.

 

Not much point swapping to 3.9kg propane as they are in short supply too, I'd need a new reg too.

Refiling may work for live aboard boaters that have a car or filling station with autogas close by, not so good if you are miles from a station and only got shank's pony to rely on.

[Guest]

I am not accusing you of anything I am trying to show some references to support my original point in post #28

 

 

"It is illegal in the UK to self refill a rented gas bottle (e.g. a Calor bottle)"

 

and also the point that to use the calor (or whoever) supplied bottle for your won purposes ie refill it yourself can be considered theft not just by me but by several people in the industry.

 

You asked for references and evidence of something I wasn't even claiming, I didnt say you were 'accusing' me of anything.

 

I understand your point it could be considered theft (by those who by your own admission have vested interests) but so far I remain completely unconvinced, I can't see why a company would go down that route when there is a potentially much more logical and successful one.

 

Calling it 'theft' is a complete red herring.

http://hvpmag.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/2031/Engineer_in_court_over_dangerous_LPG_cylinder_adaptors.html

 

 

 

Richard

So he should have been too.

[churchward]

You asked for references and evidence of something I wasn't even claiming, I didnt say you were 'accusing' me of anything.

 

I understand your point it could be considered theft (by those who by your own admission have vested interests) but so far I remain completely unconvinced, I can't see why a company would go down that route when there is a potentially much more logical and successful one.

 

Calling it 'theft' is a complete red herring.

 

So he should have been too.

It is not a red herring at all. It is theft if you deprive an owner of their property and reusing the gas bottle is doing just that.

 

However, as I have said several times it is not the only offence when self refilling with a rented LPG bottle, HSE weights and measures and so on could be an issue too.

 

What offences are more likely to be prosecuted is another matter again as I have said before but this does not alter the fact of the potential offence.

[Guest]

It is not a red herring at all. It is theft if you deprive an owner of their property and reusing the gas bottle is doing just that.

.

Reusing a gas bottle is not depriving the owner of their property any more than keeping one in my shed is.

 

There are other offences potentially committed by refilling, theft is simply not one of them.

[Jerra]

Reusing a gas bottle is not depriving the owner of their property

Do you hire your glass bottles? I buy mine.

[Guest]

Do you hire your glass bottles? I buy mine.

Yes I buy my glass bottles too.

[MtB]

Swerving back on topic, almost, the LPG nerd (his own description of himself) who trained me is fond of mentioning during the course that LPG is nick-named 'pikey gas'.

 

This not only because 'pikeys' are big users of LPG but they apparently routinely buy their LPG in 47kg bottles and dispense it into the smaller more manageable bottle sizes.

 

He advises against us doing this ourselves

[Jerra]

Yes I buy my glass bottles too.

So reusing glass bottles isn't the same as the discussion about hired gas cylinders. Incidentally reuse of glass isn't all that simple a Bee Keeper isn't allowed to reuse the jars.

[MtB]

(Oops forgot my point. Pikeys do this in preference to filling gas bottles at car filling stations, and they are the experts!)

[jonathanA]

You asked for references and evidence of something I wasn't even claiming, I didnt say you were 'accusing' me of anything.

I understand your point it could be considered theft (by those who by your own admission have vested interests) but so far I remain completely unconvinced, I can't see why a company would go down that route when there is a potentially much more logical and successful one.

Calling it 'theft' is a complete red herring.

 

So he should have been too.

And really interesting he was prosecuted for manufacturing a sub standard device, not for refilling bottles be they calors or anyone's else, also really telling that no where in that article does it say it's illegal to fill bottles just that calor and their like are trying to discourage the practice. I bet they are....

 

The business of renting bottles is just a scam plain and simple, for many years I rented BOC bottles until I got fed up of them putting up their rental prices every few months, was quite interesting when I said there your bottles come and collect them then....

 

I think the prosecutions for theft of gas cylinders are where they are being sold on as scrap metal. The calor 'rental' agreement is no such thing what it says is that your deposit will be refunded if you return the bottle on sliding scale with zero refund after 5 years. This would clearly indicate that calor consider bottles of over 5 years old to have no value.v

 

 

Eta oops lost the link to the article about the fella being prosecuted posted by RLWP and quoted by MJG

Edited August 11, 2016 by jonathanA

[MtB]

I think the prosecutions for theft of gas cylinders are where they are being sold on as scrap metal. The calor 'rental' agreement is no such thing what it says is that your deposit will be refunded if you return the bottle on sliding scale with zero refund after 5 years. This would clearly indicate that calor consider bottles of over 5 years old to have no value.

 

 

Yes except for the last bit. When you exchange your rented gas bottle you get a different bottle each time so there is virtually no chance of 'your' rented bottle ever being returned to you.

 

So another way of putting it (rather than 'scam') is the rental charge covers the first five years, after which there is no further charge should you wish to continue the hire contract...

[Guest]

So reusing glass bottles isn't the same as the discussion about hired gas cylinders. Incidentally reuse of glass isn't all that simple a Bee Keeper isn't allowed to reuse the jars.

Ah right duly noted.......

Edited August 12, 2016 by MJG

[jonathanA]

Yes except for the last bit. When you exchange your rented gas bottle you get a different bottle each time so there is virtually no chance of 'your' rented bottle ever being returned to you.

 

So another way of putting it (rather than 'scam') is the rental charge covers the first five years, after which there is no further charge should you wish to continue the hire contract...

Fair point actually I've no issue with calor, but BOC where exorbitant and it was an annual rental for the bottle plus the cost of any refills.

Although I wasn't saying you buy a bottle, because clearly as you say you exchange your empty one for another full one

[churchward]

Reusing a gas bottle is not depriving the owner of their property any more than keeping one in my shed is.

 

There are other offences potentially committed by refilling, theft is simply not one of them.

So you say, but again using something for your own purposes something you don't own thus depriving the real owners of their property is theft.

 

However, hopefully we may have at least arrived at the point we agree that refilling bottles is illegal which was my original point in post #28 which you questioned.

[Guest]

So you say, but again using something for your own purposes something you don't own thus depriving the real owners of their property is theft.

 

However, hopefully we may have at least arrived at the point we agree that refilling bottles is illegal which was my original point in post #28 which you questioned.

No we can't agree because one of your justifications of why it was illeagal related to 'you could be charged for theft' in the follow up post, which is precisely why this debate began.

 

I think it's potentially illeagal for other reasons, I think the theft issue is irrelavent.

 

So in fact what I actually think we should do is agree to disagree.

[David Mack]

So reusing glass bottles isn't the same as the discussion about hired gas cylinders. Incidentally reuse of glass isn't all that simple a Bee Keeper isn't allowed to reuse the jars.

Yes he is. If you are bottling honey for your own use or to give away you are free to use any container you like. If you are bottling it for sale, reuse of old jars is discouraged, but is not prohibited provided they are free of cracks/chips and have been properly cleaned. What can get you into trouble is reusing screw top lids, as these are deemed not to be cleanable.

 

David

(Beekeper)

[Jim Riley]

I have several bottles for caravan and boat and a couple spare. Some were found in t'cut, a couple inherited and a couple came with caravan. I've swapped for different sizes and gases over the years. I've never had an agreement or paid for a bottle. Is the "contract" refreshed ton each refill? But I just go and swap a bottle, no paperwork involved. So, danger aside, what contract would I be breaking? How many of you have an original contract, how many in the same position as me?