Installing a Morso 04 woodburner Stove, help with flue !

[meerlaan]

Hi All,

 

I am going to attempt to change my diesel bubble stove for a nice new Morso 04 wood burner to preparing for winter !

 

I am going to put the stove in the same place and use the existing hole in the roof, but I will need to purchase a new flue as the one on the bubble is 4" and on the new Morso it is 5" 125mm, my roof collar seems to be 5" and just has some wooden packing around it so hopefully this isn't too much of a problem,

 

I have read lots about the twin wall debate for chimneys and am happy with either really, I measured the length from top of stove to ceiling and make it approx 1300mm and I am struggling to find a flue this long. So I was wondering how do people do it ? do you join them or buy the flexi pipes?

 

I am planning on fitting both ends with flexible high temp silicon, is it as straight forward as just fitting the chimney this way ?

 

Any advice greatly appreciated,

 

Thanks

 

Martin

Edited July 26, 2016 by meerlaan

[meerlaan]

Was thinking of using cast iron soil pipe, the 4" one seems to have a 121.920mm diameter so should work ok, any ones thoughts ?

 

Thanks

[nbfiresprite]

It is not a good idea to reduce the flue size. As this will have an effect on the draft. As to the flue, lookup your local Metalworking suppier who will be able to supply the mild steel pipe cut to size. 5" = 127mm and the thickness no thinner then 3mm. As for sealing, You can use flexible high temp silicon at collar, But I would use a higher rated one at the stove end. I used this one on my new range http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Silicate-Cement-Flue-Seal-Silicone-1500-C-Fire-Proof-Sealant-Wood-Burning-Stove-/171251742500?hash=item27df663724:g:UzoAAOxy-WxTDMZz

[meerlaan]

Thanks for your response, so it seems I can get 5" by 3.25mm thick, ERW STEEL TUBE. would this do the trick, then I just paint it black presumably? Thabks

[Dave Payne]

kindly posted on a thread i started a few weeks ago.

 

http://www.soliftec.com/Boat%20Stoves%201-page.pdf

 

Some bits i found on ebay

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141480640512?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&var=440630037798&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331618546577?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&var=540765546407&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

I plan to do a single skin with inspection hatch from the stove to half way up, then do the double skin up to the collar.

 

You can also get double skins that are adjustable if the gap doesnt suit a fixed one.

Pay attention to the part about how far from the stove to combustible items, single skin and double skin require different distances.

[Rickent]

When we ordered our boatman last year it came with a 1.5 m length of flue pipe.

You need to use fire cement at the bottom join where flue goes into stove.

[meerlaan]

Thanks for the links ! Re your ebay links for flue pipes I was hoping to get one straight length long enough so I dont have to join two pieces,

 

Anyone have any comments on a SS flue, single wall ! such as below.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-5-127mm-1-5M-Long-Exhaust-Repair-Pipe-Stainless-Steel-Tube-1500mm-MIJ-/221162928987?hash=item337e567b5b:m:m6HZuH50u9L5YQjzJu702Iw

 

Thought this might save me painting it...! Is it ok that its only 1.5mm thick ??

 

Thanks

[nicknorman]

Just to mention that it's fine (in fact highly recommended) to use high temperature silicone at the stove end but it needs to be the 1200 degree stuff, not the 300 degree stuff.

 

Like this

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/251723362373?lpid=122&chn=ps&googleloc=9046834&poi=&campaignid=620865095&device=t&adgroupid=27378760866&rlsatarget=pla-181484345346&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ul_ref=http%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover%252F1%252F710-134428-41853-0%252F2%253Fmtid%253D1673%2526kwid%253D1%2526crlp%253D110919892746_563391%2526itemid%253D251723362373%2526targetid%253D181484345346%2526device%253Dt%2526mpre%253Dhttp%25253a%25252f%25252fwww.ebay.co.uk%25252fitm%25252flike%25252f251723362373%25253flpid%25253d122%252526chn%25253Dps%2526adtype%253Dpla%2526googleloc%253D9046834%2526poi%253D%2526campaignid%253D620865095%2526adgroupid%253D27378760866%2526rlsatarget%253Dpla-181484345346%2526gclid%253DCjwKEAjwiYG9BRCkgK-G45S323oSJABnykKAZD6FxP5nsbe73LGBiBShP-RYxn5rulhrFjmG6_KQrxoCHofw_wcB%2526srcrot%253D710-134428-41853-0%2526rvr_id%253D1071034341853

Edited August 2, 2016 by nicknorman

[meerlaan]

great thanks for that tip ! will get some of that stuff, looks good.

[nicknorman]

In the instructions it mentions that you have to leave it to cure for several days before lighting the stove.

[mrsmelly]

Hi All,

 

I am going to attempt to change my diesel bubble stove for a nice new Morso 04 wood burner to preparing for winter !

 

I am going to put the stove in the same place and use the existing hole in the roof, but I will need to purchase a new flue as the one on the bubble is 4" and on the new Morso it is 5" 125mm, my roof collar seems to be 5" and just has some wooden packing around it so hopefully this isn't too much of a problem,

 

I have read lots about the twin wall debate for chimneys and am happy with either really, I measured the length from top of stove to ceiling and make it approx 1300mm and I am struggling to find a flue this long. So I was wondering how do people do it ? do you join them or buy the flexi pipes?

 

I am planning on fitting both ends with flexible high temp silicon, is it as straight forward as just fitting the chimney this way ?

 

Any advice greatly appreciated,

 

Thanks

 

Martin

 

Limekiln chandlers sell the mild steel flues for peanuts and will deliver I have used them several times including last year

[meerlaan]

So I have read about people packing out the flue with rope, is this where the flue meets the boat roof or the collar ? Any tips for how this is done would be really appreciated, basically want to figure out what else I need to buy !

 

I have ordered a flue and some of the high temp silicone as recommended

 

I have attached some photos of the half removed flue and the new stove top,

 

Thanks

 

Shows current stove and flue

 

 

Shows new stove top

 

 

Shows where current flue meets boat roof

[nicknorman]

Never actually installed a flue on a boat (just repaired the existing one in ours) but my understanding is that the rope is used between the stove and the flue to bridge the gap and reduce the amount of sealant required (and to support the sealant). As far as I know the flue normally slides up the inside of the collar and is a fairly tight sliding fit in it (but should still be able to slide, otherwise when it heats up and expands it will put a big stress on the stove).

 

Anyway, you could always read the instructions! (which mentions using the rope between the stove and the flue)

 

http://www.woodburnerwarehouse.co.uk/media/wysiwyg/pdf/Morso/%C3%98-Collection_Instructions_-for_Installationuse.pdf

Edited August 3, 2016 by nicknorman

[MtB]

Just to mention that it's fine (in fact highly recommended) to use high temperature silicone at the stove end but it needs to be the 1200 degree stuff, not the 300 degree stuff.

 

Like this

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/251723362373?lpid=122&chn=ps&googleloc=9046834&poi=&campaignid=620865095&device=t&adgroupid=27378760866&rlsatarget=pla-181484345346&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ul_ref=http%253A%252F%252Frover.ebay.com%252Frover%252F1%252F710-134428-41853-0%252F2%253Fmtid%253D1673%2526kwid%253D1%2526crlp%253D110919892746_563391%2526itemid%253D251723362373%2526targetid%253D181484345346%2526device%253Dt%2526mpre%253Dhttp%25253a%25252f%25252fwww.ebay.co.uk%25252fitm%25252flike%25252f251723362373%25253flpid%25253d122%252526chn%25253Dps%2526adtype%253Dpla%2526googleloc%253D9046834%2526poi%253D%2526campaignid%253D620865095%2526adgroupid%253D27378760866%2526rlsatarget%253Dpla-181484345346%2526gclid%253DCjwKEAjwiYG9BRCkgK-G45S323oSJABnykKAZD6FxP5nsbe73LGBiBShP-RYxn5rulhrFjmG6_KQrxoCHofw_wcB%2526srcrot%253D710-134428-41853-0%2526rvr_id%253D1071034341853

 

 

Interstingly, searching around for another supplier who actually lists a spec for the product, I came across a product description that says it is "Not for use on boilers, hot flues, or stoves."

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/High-Temperature-Heat-Resistant-Silicone-Sealant-Envirograf-Fireproof-Mastic/331483263628?_trksid=p2141725.c100338.m3726&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150313114020%26meid%3D9090b9d8f98d41bba4e69848b66d9a57%26pid%3D100338%26rk%3D8%26rkt%3D20%26sd%3D251723362373

[nicknorman]

Interstingly, searching around for another supplier who actually lists a spec for the product, I came across a product description that says it is "Not for use on boilers, hot flues, or stoves."

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/High-Temperature-Heat-Resistant-Silicone-Sealant-Envirograf-Fireproof-Mastic/331483263628?_trksid=p2141725.c100338.m3726&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150313114020%26meid%3D9090b9d8f98d41bba4e69848b66d9a57%26pid%3D100338%26rk%3D8%26rkt%3D20%26sd%3D251723362373

However the manufacturer's data sheet seems to allow it, there is a section about "log and coal fire burners"

 

http://envirograf.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/TD062-01-2015.pdf

 

Anyway I used this on our stove about 3 years ago and it's still perfect.

Edited August 4, 2016 by nicknorman

[MtB]

To expand on this, the data sheet for the product says something similar but different:

 

"When sealing in situations, which normally have adjacent flames, it is absolutely essential that you allow 3 days WITHOUT FLAMES, for every 1-2 mm of Silicone Sealant installed, in order to set the silicone into its fireproof state. For example, 5-6 mm of Silicone Sealant installed would require 4-5 days for the silicone to set. DO NOT allow flames in the vicinity of setting silicone.
We recommend you use the SIL/T, as this has already cured. (See Product 115)"

 

In the light of this I can see why the ebay seller says its not suitable for boilers, hot flues or stoves!

[WotEver]

In the light of this I can see why the ebay seller says its not suitable for boilers, hot flues or stoves!

 

I can't. All they have to do is to copy the manufacturer's curing advice.

[nicknorman]

To expand on this, the data sheet for the product says something similar but different:

 

"When sealing in situations, which normally have adjacent flames, it is absolutely essential that you allow 3 days WITHOUT FLAMES, for every 1-2 mm of Silicone Sealant installed, in order to set the silicone into its fireproof state. For example, 5-6 mm of Silicone Sealant installed would require 4-5 days for the silicone to set. DO NOT allow flames in the vicinity of setting silicone.

We recommend you use the SIL/T, as this has already cured. (See Product 115)"

 

In the light of this I can see why the ebay seller says its not suitable for boilers, hot flues or stoves!

It should also be borne in mind that if you put glass rope around the base of the flue to stove joint and the sealant on top of that, it is not bathed in flames. It would be different if, for example, you used the silicone to repair a crack in the firebox.

 

Oh and the other point to mention is that if you use fire cement, you can guarantee that it will be cracked within a few months of use. Whereas the silicone won't be. So whilst you might be able to engineer a situation where the silicone isn't perfect, it is certainly vastly better than fire cement. As I said, ours looks exactly the same as the day I installed it about 3 years ago. Whereas the original cement was crumbling to pieces within a year.

Edited August 4, 2016 by nicknorman

[MtB]

 

I can't. All they have to do is to copy the manufacturer's curing advice.

 

 

Well I think the average plank of a plumber likely to buy this stuff is very UNlikely to follow the curing instructions.

 

Far easier and pragmatice of the seller to just state it is not suitable for boilers and flues.

[MtB]

It should also be borne in mind that if you put glass rope around the base of the flue to stove joint and the sealant on top of that, it is not bathed in flames. It would be different if, for example, you used the silicone to repair a crack in the firebox.

 

Oh and the other point to mention is that if you use fire cement, you can guarantee that it will be cracked within a few months of use. Whereas the silicone won't be. So whilst you might be able to engineer a situation where the silicone isn't perfect, it is certainly vastly better than fire cement. As I said, ours looks exactly the same as the day I installed it about 3 years ago. Whereas the original cement was crumbling to pieces within a year.

 

 

Yes I totally agree about the unsuitablity of fire cement, which is why I take a keen interest in alternatives, of which this is the first I've seen which remains flexible.

 

Never mind insulating the Envirograf from the adjacent flame with glass rope, the data sheet still says "DO NOT allow flames in the vicinity of setting silicone", not "protect from direct flame contact". I suspect until has set into its fireproof state, the water in it would boil if raised to anything like stove temperature and the stuff would bubble up into a big mess.

 

I had a look at the "product 115" they recommend instead, and see it is only good for 200 degrees C and being tape, not really approriate. A bit odd really.

[bizzard]

I had a sneaking suspicion that there wasn't much difference in heat tolerances between any of the silicons so I experimented by putting a dollop of expensive high temp red silicon and a dollop of ordinary cheap £1.40 silicon on a steel plate and when cured laid it in the firebox of my stove on red hot coals and kept an eye on them. After a while at pretty high heat they both seemed to break down and crumble at the same time, they didn't catch light.

Vitcas fire cement seems good, unlike the old white fire cement it last much longer and doesn't seem to gradually fall away powdery, it seems to have a plasticizer mixed in it, probably silicon.

Edited August 4, 2016 by bizzard

[nicknorman]

Yes I totally agree about the unsuitablity of fire cement, which is why I take a keen interest in alternatives, of which this is the first I've seen which remains flexible.

 

Never mind insulating the Envirograf from the adjacent flame with glass rope, the data sheet still says "DO NOT allow flames in the vicinity of setting silicone", not "protect from direct flame contact". I suspect until has set into its fireproof state, the water in it would boil if raised to anything like stove temperature and the stuff would bubble up into a big mess.

 

I had a look at the "product 115" they recommend instead, and see it is only good for 200 degrees C and being tape, not really approriate. A bit odd really.

Well it depends what you mean by "vicinity". If the tip of the flame stopped a few cm short of the silicone, I'd call that "in the vicinity". However if there is something substantial between the flame and the silicone, ie the rope, I wouldn't call that "in the vicinity".

 

Anyway when I used the stuff it was in the late summer and I left it a good while before needing to light the stove.

Edited August 4, 2016 by nicknorman

[MtB]

Well it depends what you mean by "vicinity". If the tip of the flame stopped a few cm short of the silicone, I'd call that "in the vicinity". However if there is something substantial between the flame and the silicone, ie the rope, I wouldn't call that "in the vicinity".

 

Anyway when I used the stuff it was in the late summer and I left it a good while before needing to light the stove.

 

 

I'd say the weasel words were picked specifically for their ambiguity. I bet the manufacturer would call a flame inside the appliance to wich you have applied the silicone 'in the vicinity' in the event of a guarantee claim from you. In fact I bet they'd claim application of heat too soon as the reason for failure whatever the real reason was.

 

Manufacturers are fond of putting weasel words in instruction manuals in order to fend off guarantee claims. Many, many examples of it occur in the world of plumbing and heating.

I had a sneaking suspicion that there wasn't much difference in heat tolerances between any of the silicons so I experimented by putting a dollop of expensive high temp red silicon and a dollop of ordinary cheap £1.40 silicon on a steel plate and when cured laid it in the firebox of my stove on red hot coals and kept an eye on them. After a while at pretty high heat they both seemed to break down and crumble at the same time, they didn't catch light.

Vitcas fire cement seems good, unlike the old white fire cement it last much longer and doesn't seem to gradually fall away powdery, it seems to have a plasticizer mixed in it, probably silicon.

 

 

An interesting experiment which I've often thought about trying but couldn't find my round tuit. Thanks for the info, it confirms my own suspicions!

[Dave Payne]

So I have read about people packing out the flue with rope, is this where the flue meets the boat roof or the collar ? Any tips for how this is done would be really appreciated, basically want to figure out what else I need to buy !

 

I have ordered a flue and some of the high temp silicone as recommended

 

I have attached some photos of the half removed flue and the new stove top,

 

Thanks

 

Shows current stove and flue

unspecified-3.jpg

 

 

Shows new stove top

unspecified-4.jpg

 

 

Shows where current flue meets boat roof

unspecified-5.jpg

 

 

I cant see if you have any fireproof material behind the existing flue, but if you go for a single skin then you need to make sure you are aware of the regs, minimum distance for flammable materials.....

 

Also i believe double is better for the performance of the fire/flue.

 

As per post 5, read and understand this...

 

http://www.soliftec....oves 1-page.pdf

[meerlaan]

Thanks for all your comments, the flue has arrived but I have encountered a new problem! as always seems to be the way

The hole in the roof is not big enough for the new 5" chimney, it seems the roof collar is about 5 1/2" and you can see in the photo a sample section of black 5" tube standing on top of it, there is a large gap which has been filled, but once I have cleared all this out I can see the roof hole is not so large :/

The photos from inside show the smaller diameter hole approx. 4 1/2" and there is what looks like a metal roof support !! would it be possible to just jig saw this hole a little bigger ?? what can I do about the metal square section? is this structural, I would need to cut about half of this to make the hole 5" so I can fit my new chimney and use the existing collar.

Any help appreciated, not sure how to tackle this one....

Thanks

Martin