rivergate Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) What are the brass buckles? which are clipped together into a chain called..? ...think I remember the good ones were from a ex army bag of some sort...? Thanks Jon Edited July 10, 2016 by rivergate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete harrison Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 I am not aware of them having a specific name but they are starting to get difficult to get hold of. On the plus side when it was in service your PROGRESS is very unlikely to ever have carried a chain made from these clips. As you probably already know they can be found on the straps of gas mask bags, but this is an expensive method of obtaining them - as well as effecting the historical integrity of somebody else's interest. For the past few years I have been trying to source a chain from the 'copies' made by Doug Greaves in the early 1980's, so far without success Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyhanger Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) What are the brass buckles? which are clipped together into a chain called..? ...think I remember the good ones were from a ex army bag of some sort...? Thanks Jon Originally they were links from the strap on a gas mask case Sorry, Pete beat me to it! Edited July 10, 2016 by monkeyhanger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) They were from WW 2 gas mask bags, usually called a "chimney chain!" Usually topped off with a rosette horse brass After the war these bags were collected at Croxley Mill with the reclaimed brass hooks in a seperate shed. The boat men used to grab handfulls for either their own use or sell to other boaters. There are mainly two different types of clip: But there are others! Edited July 10, 2016 by Ray T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivergate Posted July 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 Thanks guys....I thought I still had my chain from Epsom but cant find it....gas masks - of course! Thank you I will keep looking.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) eBay is your best bet but to make a chain of 9/10 links you can be paying approx £90 - £100 upwards, if you can find any with brass clips! If you want porcelain rosettes, they aren't cheap either: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STUNNING-SET-OF-5-VICTORIAN-SOLID-BRASS-PORCELAIN-HORSE-BRASS-ROSETTES-/201439985800?hash=item2ee6c24088:g:0DkAAOSw42JWC9Vu Beehive rosettes a bit cheaper: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Horse-Brass-Pressed-Beehive-Rosette-/262517827869?hash=item3d1f48291d:g:Ad4AAOSwRJ9XgkL2 Edited July 10, 2016 by Ray T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivergate Posted July 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 Thanks Ray ..I was on ebay when I originally posted - couldn't remember the right terminology.. I like that last rosette - very nice Are the photos of your own chains and rosettes..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) Thanks Ray ..I was on ebay when I originally posted - couldn't remember the right terminology.. I like that last rosette - very nice Are the photos of your own chains and rosettes..? No, but I have two chains of each type of link. I tend to only display them when the boat is manned as I fear they may have a tendency to "walk" when I am not looking! One of mine: I can make it full length but the chimney I use is 18" high. When looking on eBay I went for "tatty" bags as then I didn't feel too guilty using the links and disposing of the bags. Mostly re-enacters want good quality bags. I did buy one bag which I have kept intact because of is of such good quality: Edited July 10, 2016 by Ray T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivergate Posted July 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 That's really nice - I can see why you wouldn't leave it out Thanks for sharing the picture as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurence Hogg Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 The correct type of chain for "Progress" would have been plain ordinary iron chain. BCN traditions were utilarian and the decorative brassware was notably absent. One of Haywards tugs with its crew: Nice and shiny!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 The correct type of chain for "Progress" would have been plain ordinary iron chain. BCN traditions were utilarian and the decorative brassware was notably absent. Excellent! Another example of the oversimplification of tradition. We should always be wary of the 'proper' way of doing things - it's most likely to be only proper for one area at one time. Perhaps only for a single boat Thanks Laurence, I like the practical Midlands chain I do like that picture too, there seems to be a bond between the three men Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 Excellent! Another example of the oversimplification of tradition. We should always be wary of the 'proper' way of doing things - it's most likely to be only proper for one area at one time. Perhaps only for a single boat Thanks Laurence, I like the practical Midlands chain I do like that picture too, there seems to be a bond between the three men Richard Is the middle one named James then? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 Is the middle one named James then? Well, I know Daniel Craig would like to stand down but.... Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesWoolcock Posted July 10, 2016 Report Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) The boat is Tipton coal proprietor and timber merchant WJ Hayward's SALLY. She was so renamed by Joseph Holloway of Oldbury after his sister Sarah, when he bought her from FMC in 1942. Joe Chetten tells me that she later went to Caggie Stevens. He had a bit of a disaster steering her and a train of joeys round Horseley Fields Junction when he was about 12 ! She was the FMC steamer MARQUIS (1898). Malcolm Braine told me he took the picture at Norton Canes but can't remember who the crew was. I have a copy and another one with only the man on the right in the shot. James Edited July 11, 2016 by JamesWoolcock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fittie Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 (edited) Hi, The chain links come from MK 6 gas mask bags from around 1940 and '41. I think that the need for brass was getting very high and the MK 7, around 1942, had lost the hooks all together. Earlier MK 5 bag the hook had a cloth link and were used up to about 1939 but I can't remember when they came about - 1937?. Someone tried to sell me a chain and told me that some of the links were from WW1 - which is not so. The hooks used in WW1 were totally different from those used (as in the pictures above) and cannot be hooked together to make the "traditional" chimney chain. The hooks ( as were the bags) were made by different manufactures and vary from each other - some more curved, some less so. The belief that the more curved ones are from WW1 ( and therefore more expensive) is total tosh so be warned! They can still be found - look for MK VI bags - MK VI will be written under the flap of the main pocket with (usually) the date and maker. The straps do not last as long as the bags so the links do come up. The 3 part hook from around 1940 and the 2 part hook 1941. I hope this sad bit of knowledge is of some help. Any other questions please ask. Edited July 11, 2016 by fittie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek R. Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 (edited) Here's another SALLY. Took this some time in the late eighties heading for BCLM. Lovely shot of the tug and crew. Edited July 11, 2016 by Derek R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 Hi, The chain links come from MK 6 gas mask bags from around 1940 and '41. I think that the need for brass was getting very high and the MK 7, around 1942, had lost the hooks all together. Earlier MK 5 bag the hook had a cloth link and were used up to about 1939 but I can't remember when they came about - 1937?. Someone tried to sell me a chain and told me that some of the links were from WW1 - which is not so. The hooks used in WW1 were totally different from those used (as in the pictures above) and cannot be hooked together to make the "traditional" chimney chain. The hooks ( as were the bags) were made by different manufactures and vary from each other - some more curved, some less so. The belief that the more curved ones are from WW1 ( and therefore more expensive) is total tosh so be warned! They can still be found - look for MK VI bags - MK VI will be written under the flap of the main pocket with (usually) the date and maker. The straps do not last as long as the bags so the links do come up. The 3 part hook from around 1940 and the 2 part hook 1941. I hope this sad bit of knowledge is of some help. Any other questions please ask. Not sad at all. I like the minutiae. A bit more: Wearing positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek R. Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 (edited) I have a bag dated 72, with the WD arrow above that has the clips the same as the second type in Ray's post No.4. What intrigues me is what went into the pockets within? Aside from the main portion, there are two smaller sections inside at the front (for instructions?), and one small pocket within at the back (for a tin of anti-gas ointment?) Also outside at the lowest end on one side only, a small pocket that you can barely get two fingers in. Its opposite side has a circular brass pressing around which a string may be wound, and most likely used in the impromptu trench shot of 'The train now arriving . . .' ETA: The little outside pocket may well have been the home of the string which connected to the brass pressing when not in the higher chest position. There is a brass ferrule through which just such a piece of string could be anchored. Maybe these secondary thoughts are being placed into my head from Dad . . . He's looking at me from the photo frame as I write! Edited July 11, 2016 by Derek R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMModels Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 The correct type of chain for "Progress" would have been plain ordinary iron chain. BCN traditions were utilarian and the decorative brassware was notably absent. One of Haywards tugs with its crew: Nice and shiny!! Ive seen this photo so many times and the guy in the middle is just so familiar, Im sure I knew him at some point but cant place where. Looking at his trousers though he could be Simon Cowells father... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 Isn't it a pity they aren't wearing authentic clothing Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fittie Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 I have a bag dated 72, with the WD arrow above that has the clips the same as the second type in Ray's post No.4. What intrigues me is what went into the pockets within? Aside from the main portion, there are two smaller sections inside at the front (for instructions?), and one small pocket within at the back (for a tin of anti-gas ointment?) Also outside at the lowest end on one side only, a small pocket that you can barely get two fingers in. Its opposite side has a circular brass pressing around which a string may be wound, and most likely used in the impromptu trench shot of 'The train now arriving . . .' ETA: The little outside pocket may well have been the home of the string which connected to the brass pressing when not in the higher chest position. There is a brass ferrule through which just such a piece of string could be anchored. Maybe these secondary thoughts are being placed into my head from Dad . . . He's looking at me from the photo frame as I write! 72 is not the date - batch no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek R. Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 Thought I had a couple of images somewhere: May well be a batch number, I just took it to be the date year. Heaven knows what the other long number is, although it could be an individual soldiers number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEngo Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 I have a bag dated 72, with the WD arrow above that has the clips the same as the second type in Ray's post No.4. What intrigues me is what went into the pockets within? Aside from the main portion, there are two smaller sections inside at the front (for instructions?), and one small pocket within at the back (for a tin of anti-gas ointment?) Also outside at the lowest end on one side only, a small pocket that you can barely get two fingers in. Its opposite side has a circular brass pressing around which a string may be wound, and most likely used in the impromptu trench shot of 'The train now arriving . . .' ETA: The little outside pocket may well have been the home of the string which connected to the brass pressing when not in the higher chest position. There is a brass ferrule through which just such a piece of string could be anchored. Maybe these secondary thoughts are being placed into my head from Dad . . . He's looking at me from the photo frame as I write! IIRC the bag should contain a spare filter and an anti-mist/cleaning compound as well as nerve gas pills and an atropine autoject. The string lives in the pocket and can be wound round the fitting on another bag so that a string of people can follow one leader in total dark or thick smoke. This is not very Army but the bags were tri service and this is a Navy feature. N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fittie Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 The long number is the serial number of the owner(?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fittie Posted July 11, 2016 Report Share Posted July 11, 2016 (edited) W & G is the maker - they also made bits for the mosquito. The MK VII is the same bag as used by Indiana Jones in the movies. Sorry the images are not that good but I lost the will to live + only taken with my phone and they will do, I hope. Edited July 11, 2016 by fittie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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