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Victron multiplus 12/3000/120 how do I use power assist?


meerlaan

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Hi all,

 

Just had a new victron multiplus installed ! Very exciting :)

 

I am no trying to figure out how to use it !! The inverter seems to work fine, switch on inveter and my 240 works.. great ! The charger I am going to try tomorrow with the Genny but my confusion comes from what settings I use to use the power assist feature. there is a switch on for charger or on for inverter but which one would I use for the Genny/ power assist.

 

I would like to run my washing machine by running my generator (honda eu20i) and using the power assist feature to take any extra load from my batteries. Any one have any experience how I would do this?

 

Thanks for your time.

 

Martin

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I have the same inverter, a washing machine and a 6 amp shoreline supply. I haven't tried to "undo" a setting that "economises" the wave form as I haven't got the manual and not sure how to do that, but I understand that the "energy saving" function needs to be disabled. Ours just causes the drum to "twitch" ( presume can't handle the start-up surge set as it is) and need to discover how to do this.

 

I am sure someone will be along soon though !

 

Nick

 

ETA - as John says, the power assist happens automatically, (assuming the setting I need to change is correct)

Edited by Nickhlx
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Well the short answer, just to dampen your excitement - is to read the manual! However the general idea is that it needs to be set active with the configuration (by laptop or DIP switches) and the relevant genny/shore max current, and then it's automatic. So you set the generator / shore supply limit, if the demand exceeds the genny/shore limit, then the Victron automatically starts doing "power assist".

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Martin (meerlaan)

 

Power assist will be automatic

 

The combi should always be ON, charger only is for when you wish to charge the batteries (shoreline or genny) and not use 240v ac onboard.

 

I have the same inverter, a washing machine and a 6 amp shoreline supply. I haven't tried to "undo" a setting that "economises" the wave form as I haven't got the manual and not sure how to do that, but I understand that the "energy saving" function needs to be disabled. Ours just causes the drum to "twitch" ( presume can't handle the start-up surge set as it is) and need to discover how to do this.

 

I am sure someone will be along soon though !

 

Nick

 

ETA - as John says, the power assist happens automatically, (assuming the setting I need to change is correct)

 

To do that you need a laptop, a program (VE Config) and the interface.

 

The 'energy saving' only happens when there is 'no load' whenever there is a load the combi senses it and comes out of 'energy saving'.

 

Only useful if you want to leave the combi ON for long periods without it inverting, say over night but you could save more by turning it OFF. wink.png

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The manual is available at https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Manual%20-%20MultiPlus%203k%20230V%20Ve.Bus%20enabled%20-%20rev%2000%20-%20EN%20NL.pdf

 

If you look at page 24 the DIP switch settings for the assist current are there do read the manual

 

Procedure

The AC input current limit can be set using DIP switches ds8, ds7 and ds6 (default

setting: 30A, automatically limited to 16A in 16A models).

Procedure: set the DIP switches to the required value:

ds8 ds7 ds6

off off off = 4A (0,9kVA at 230V)

off off on = 6A (1,4kVA at 230V)

off on off = 10A (2.3kVA at 230V)

off on on = 12A (2.8kVA at 230V)

on off off = 16A (3.7kVA at 230V)

on off on = 20A (4.6kVA at 230V)

on on off = 25A (5,7kVA at 230V)

on on on = 30A (6.9kVA at 230V)

Remark: Manufacturer-specified continuous power ratings for small

generators are sometimes inclined to be rather optimistic. In that

case, the current limit should be set to a much lower value than

would otherwise be required on the basis of manufacturer-specified

data.

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I usually include one of these when installing a MP or Quatro, one of its functions is the ability to adjust the power assist on the fly to suit varying AC input availability at the simple turn of a knob.

Digital%20Multi%20Control%20Panel_front_

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Thanks for all your responses ! I have read the manual (many times,) and I do get a bit lost with it, I set the dip switches with the electrician who installed the multiplus but cannot seem to see which ones relates to 'the relevant genny/shore max current,'

 

Thanks for answering the 'ON' is the switch I should be setting to use the multiplus with, that clears that up :) I did also find this in the manual after re reading :/

 

I found this:

 

5.5.1 Step 1

 

5.5.1.1 AC input current limitation (default: 16A for models with max. 16A feed through current, and 50A for models with max. 50A feed through current)

 

When the AC input current drawn by the Multi (due to the connected loads and the battery charger) rises and is about to exceed the AC input current limit, the Multi will first reduce its charging current (PowerControl) and subsequently, if needed, supply additional power from the battery (PowerAssist). This way the Multi will try to prevent that the input current exceeds the set limit.

 

The AC input current limit can be set to eight different values by means of DIP switches. With a Multi Control Panel, a variable current limit can be set for the AC input.

 

Procedure The AC input current limit can be set using DIP switches

 

ds8, ds7 and ds6 (default setting: 50A, automatically limited to 16A in 16A models).

 

Procedure: set the DIP switches to the required value:

 

ds8 ds7 ds6

off off off = 6A (1.4kVA at 230V)

off off on = 10A (2.3kVA at 230V)

off on off = 12A (2.8kVA at 230V)

off on on = 16A (3.7kVA at 230V)

 

Which setting would I use or my eu20i (max2000w), is it only possible to set 2kva using a digital multi control?

 

Also anyone know which dip switched relate to turning on power assist ?

 

I put DS5 = ON (AES ON) but thats just economy mode right?

 

Thanks for all your help, really appreciate it. I have been reading and planning my electrics upgrade for a while and am very excited to have it all set up :)

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We have the remote that NMEA pictured. As we are gas free with a 6kva generator it is usually set to 26 amps so that power assist will switch in before the generator reaches overload. When plugged into a shoreline we just reset it to 16 amp, or less depending on the shoreline.

 

I only tried it on the power saving mode once but, as the OP says the washing machine didn't like it.

 

If the OP is going to alter some of his settings then perhaps he should also select the option to allow a weak AC input - I think that's what it's called.

 

As others have said, invest in the VE config interface. It is much easier than using the dip switches and it allows you to have different settings if on a shoreline for any length of time.

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Hi Pete,

 

thanks for your comments,

 

When you say power saver mode is this the same as economy ? presumably this would stop if AC is being used ?

 

Is there more I can set with a VE config interface then ? I will look into this, do I just need to buy the cable and the program is free ? (fingers crossed)

 

Thanks

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Thanks for all your responses ! I have read the manual (many times,) and I do get a bit lost with it, I set the dip switches with the electrician who installed the multiplus but cannot seem to see which ones relates to 'the relevant genny/shore max current,'

 

Thanks for answering the 'ON' is the switch I should be setting to use the multiplus with, that clears that up :) I did also find this in the manual after re reading :/

 

I found this:

 

5.5.1 Step 1

 

5.5.1.1 AC input current limitation (default: 16A for models with max. 16A feed through current, and 50A for models with max. 50A feed through current)

 

When the AC input current drawn by the Multi (due to the connected loads and the battery charger) rises and is about to exceed the AC input current limit, the Multi will first reduce its charging current (PowerControl) and subsequently, if needed, supply additional power from the battery (PowerAssist). This way the Multi will try to prevent that the input current exceeds the set limit.

 

The AC input current limit can be set to eight different values by means of DIP switches. With a Multi Control Panel, a variable current limit can be set for the AC input.

 

Procedure The AC input current limit can be set using DIP switches

 

ds8, ds7 and ds6 (default setting: 50A, automatically limited to 16A in 16A models).

 

Procedure: set the DIP switches to the required value:

 

ds8 ds7 ds6

off off off = 6A (1.4kVA at 230V)

off off on = 10A (2.3kVA at 230V)

off on off = 12A (2.8kVA at 230V)

off on on = 16A (3.7kVA at 230V)

 

Which setting would I use or my eu20i (max2000w), is it only possible to set 2kva using a digital multi control?

 

Also anyone know which dip switched relate to turning on power assist ?

 

I put DS5 = ON (AES ON) but thats just economy mode right?

 

Thanks for all your help, really appreciate it. I have been reading and planning my electrics upgrade for a while and am very excited to have it all set up :)

The DIP switches only allow a limited number of setting so you'd have to use the 6A one. I don't think the cost of the interface cable is significant when compared to the cost of a boat or even a multiplus so I suggest that's the best option. Yes the programme is free. You will also be able to set charging voltages etc to suit any particular battery requirements, do an easy Equalise of the batteries etc.

 

Just bear in mind that the Honda probably isn't rated at 2kw continuous so check the continuous rating as opposed to the peak / short term rating and set the Victron accordingly.

 

You could also consider a Multicontrol remote as mentioned by NMEA. This would be convenient if you needed to frequently adjust the current limit. However if the need is only to set up the multi for your particular genny as a "one off" then the PC interface is cheaper and more flexible if less convenient.

Edited by nicknorman
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Martin (Meerlaan)

 

Download the program,VEconfig, from the Victron site. Victron link

 

You can have a look at it and what it does by using 'fake target' from 'port selection' it will give all the settings that are available but the number of settings for your actual unit may not be the full gambit.

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Hi Bottle,

 

Thanks for the link, I have downloaded the program and been having a look in test mode !

 

I have a couple of questions:

 

Is it possible to take the setttings already done by me and the electrician (from the dip switches) would this be done using 'get settings' Then would I need to set 'AC1 input current limit (priority)' to my genny max output. Which is continuous 1600w and max 2000w not sure what this is in amps?

 

What does 'dynamic current limiter' mean?

 

Is is a good idea to put AES on, as I understand it this is like a power saver mode.

 

Could anyone explain the vitural swith a little, I understand this is very complicated piece of kit and am doing my best, thanks for everyones input.

 

Martin

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We have the remote that NMEA pictured. As we are gas free with a 6kva generator it is usually set to 26 amps so that power assist will switch in before the generator reaches overload. When plugged into a shoreline we just reset it to 16 amp, or less depending on the shoreline.

 

I only tried it on the power saving mode once but, as the OP says the washing machine didn't like it.

 

If the OP is going to alter some of his settings then perhaps he should also select the option to allow a weak AC input - I think that's what it's called.

 

As others have said, invest in the VE config interface. It is much easier than using the dip switches and it allows you to have different settings if on a shoreline for any length of time.

 

 

Owch 26 amps that is really caning the genny to the max. I would consider that 20amps or less would be much kinder to the genny & make it last longer. Also fuel wise a 3/4 loading seems to be the sweet spot re fuel used to power produced.

 

I have the same unit & use the assist function. When needed I use the virtual panel to change the settings. Normally twice per year for winter / summer settings as I allow the bats to take a larger load in the summer as the PV can keep the charged.

 

With the dongle & software you can set the value of the assist boost as a multipul of the input power.

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Not sure what that means ? setting the 'assist current boost factor' ? is seems default is 2,

 

Would I be be correct to set my amps at 7 ? (1600/230)

 

Thanks

Manual says to leave the current boost factor at 2. Yes 6A will probably be OK - actually 1600/230 is 5.95 but it will probably cope with the extra 0.05!

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hmmm ok, well I am pretty sure this is what the electrician set the dip switches to when installed on friday, so perhaps I wont need the cable.

 

But I did try and run my washing machine a miele 2670 on a 40degree quick wash while the genny was plugged in and the victron switched to inverter on, I tried to keep an eye on my battery monitor but didnt correlate with the victron, the multiplus started flashing low battery after about 4mins so I got worried and ended the wash, the batteries were definately full. 640ah (6 T105) the multipus also kept clicking (switching) from inverter on/ charger on lights.

 

Does this make any sense ? perhaps it was working ok and I just got worried by the flashing low battery light.

 

Thanks

 

Martin

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The low battery light flashing isn't normal bearing in mind perhaps a 2.5kw load (once the washer is nearly full and the heater cuts in) with a 1.6kw genny ie around 1kw (90A or so) from the batteries. So firstly, were the batteries actually low? Was the battery voltage by the time it reached the inverter low?

 

In other words, check the battery voltage with a meter both at the batteries and at the input to the Combi, whilst the washer is on. Perhaps there is a poor connection (eg slightly resistive battery isolator switch) that is dropping voltage when a lot of current is pulled.

 

So 1/ voltage at batteries with washer on = ?

 

2/ dc voltage at Combi with washer on = ?

 

The other thought is that genny voltage waveforms are not perfect and perhaps the Combi is rejecting that? Does the inverter / Combi combination provide plenty of charging current to the batteries when the batteries are lowish and the genny is started?

 

3/ charge current from Combi when run from the genny =?

 

If 3/ is a problem then there is a "weak ac" setting in the Victron that makes it less critical of dodgy genny waveform and you might have to turn that on.

 

4/ Running the genny in "smart throttle" mode or flat out? (Flat out probably best)

 

5/ does the genny seem to be working quite hard when the washer is on?

 

Finally on your mention of switching from charger to inverter this is perhaps not too surprising. As the drum rotates / stops, the current demand from the washer varies and it might be going above and below 6A hence the Combi is alternately shutting off the charge current and going to inverter mode when the current >6A, and going back to charge if the current <6A. I say "perhaps" because it doesn't quite fit - once the heater is on, the demand will be constantly >6A. With the heater off I would doubt that the drum motor would draw more than 6A although I suppose it could be the starting transient. 4 mins may or may not be long enough for the washer to fill and turn on the heater.

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Thanks for your response Nick, I am working my way through what you said,

 

Have just bought myself a clamp meter a uni-t 202a, and am getting to gribs with how to use it, my batteries seem to be at 7.2 - 7.18 but think thats because they are charging (solar)

 

I am fairly confirdent they were full, as they are new and I had been running the engine for a few ours before as well as having 900w of solar installed.

 

Yes the genny was running hard, but even when I stopped the wash it contuned flat out and giving about 1000w to the battery charger, (reading of BMV700) but the SOC said 98.5%

 

'The other thought is that genny voltage waveforms are not perfect and perhaps the Combi is rejecting that? Does the inverter / Combi combination provide plenty of charging current to the batteries when the batteries are lowish and the genny is started?'

 

Not sure how to check this?

 

Thanks for your help

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Thanks for your response Nick, I am working my way through what you said,

 

Have just bought myself a clamp meter a uni-t 202a, and am getting to gribs with how to use it, my batteries seem to be at 7.2 - 7.18 but think thats because they are charging (solar)

 

I am fairly confirdent they were full, as they are new and I had been running the engine for a few ours before as well as having 900w of solar installed.

 

Yes the genny was running hard, but even when I stopped the wash it contuned flat out and giving about 1000w to the battery charger, (reading of BMV700) but the SOC said 98.5%

 

 

'The other thought is that genny voltage waveforms are not perfect and perhaps the Combi is rejecting that? Does the inverter / Combi combination provide plenty of charging current to the batteries when the batteries are lowish and the genny is started?'

 

Not sure how to check this?

 

Thanks for your help

Firstly, have you really bought a uni-t 202 or is it a 203? If it is a 202 then sorry, you bought wrong as these ones only do AC current, they don't do DC current, so no use in a 12v system. Change it for a 203 if you can.

 

Re. The waveform, you've pretty much answered that question when you say the genny was powering the charger happily - this means the waveform is probably OK. So we come back to possible voltage drop in the wiring between batteries and Combi. But of course if the Combi can happily pass 80A to charge the batteries, you'd think it could do the same the other way to run the inverter.

 

Hmmmm, confusing! All I can suggest is that you do some voltage measurements when the washer is on. If the Combi low voltage light is on it means the voltage at the Combi is low - obviously! So it is either starting out low from the batteries, or becoming low on the way to the Combi due to poor connections / inadequate cabling.

 

Also just to mention that the BMV700's state of charge indication should not be relied upon too much especially if it has the default setting of 4% tail current. It will show 100% SoC when the tail current reaches 26A or so which is a long way from fully charged. If you stop charging at that point routinely, you are seriously undercharging your batteries.

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Hi Bottle,

 

Thanks for the link, I have downloaded the program and been having a look in test mode !

 

I have a couple of questions:

 

Is it possible to take the setttings already done by me and the electrician (from the dip switches) would this be done using 'get settings' Then would I need to set 'AC1 input current limit (priority)' to my genny max output. Which is continuous 1600w and max 2000w not sure what this is in amps?

 

What does 'dynamic current limiter' mean?

 

Is is a good idea to put AES on, as I understand it this is like a power saver mode.

 

Could anyone explain the vitural swith a little, I understand this is very complicated piece of kit and am doing my best, thanks for everyones input.

 

Martin

 

Virtual switch is simply a switch that turns ON or OFF when certain parameters are set.

 

It can be used to do many things but I use it to auto start my 7Kw generator.

 

Mine is set to turn ON when a load of 1000 watts (1 Kw) has been on for 15 seconds, it then runs for a minimum of 60 minutes

 

These are figures I have set for my particular set-up.

 

There are many many more configurations.

 

At the moment you can forget about it. wink.png

 

hmmm ok, well I am pretty sure this is what the electrician set the dip switches to when installed on friday, so perhaps I wont need the cable.

 

But I did try and run my washing machine a miele 2670 on a 40degree quick wash while the genny was plugged in and the victron switched to inverter on, I tried to keep an eye on my battery monitor but didnt correlate with the victron, the multiplus started flashing low battery after about 4mins so I got worried and ended the wash, the batteries were definately full. 640ah (6 T105) the multipus also kept clicking (switching) from inverter on/ charger on lights.

 

Does this make any sense ? perhaps it was working ok and I just got worried by the flashing low battery light.

 

Thanks

 

Martin

 

This is normal.

 

What it is showing is that the inverter is assisting the generator/shoreline when an initial heavy load is turned ON but then the generator catches up and takes over.

 

As mentioned I have a 7Kw generator but this still gets assistance in this way, for example the oven (thermostatically controlled) cycles ON and OFF to maintain the set temperature, the combi can be heard assisting each time it cycles ON, only for seconds until the generator catches up with the load.

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Evening,

 

This is the one I bought : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331854179905?_trksid=p2060353.m2763.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Did I get the wrong one ?? It does say DC on the listing :/

 

'Also just to mention that the BMV700's state of charge indication should not be relied upon too much especially if it has the default setting of 4% tail current. It will show 100% SoC when the tail current reaches 26A or so which is a long way from fully charged. If you stop charging at that point routinely, you are seriously undercharging your batteries.'

 

Think I set it to 2% is this a good idea ? also my solar is always on so surely this will keep the batteries topped up at least for now, Could I ask why is 26A a long way from fully charged?

 

Thanks for your response bottle, do you know what 'dynamic current limiter' is ?

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Evening,

 

This is the one I bought : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331854179905?_trksid=p2060353.m2763.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Did I get the wrong one ?? It does say DC on the listing :/

 

'Also just to mention that the BMV700's state of charge indication should not be relied upon too much especially if it has the default setting of 4% tail current. It will show 100% SoC when the tail current reaches 26A or so which is a long way from fully charged. If you stop charging at that point routinely, you are seriously undercharging your batteries.'

 

Think I set it to 2% is this a good idea ? also my solar is always on so surely this will keep the batteries topped up at least for now, Could I ask why is 26A a long way from fully charged?

 

Thanks for your response bottle, do you know what 'dynamic current limiter' is ?

The 202 only does AC current (you can see that in the spec). The whole point of a Clampmeter is to measure current (since all multimeters measure voltage, that is the easy bit!). So yes I'm afraid you did get the wrong one. Of course since you have the BMV you already know the current going in and out of the batteries so perhaps you don't particularly need a clamp meter. But if you are going to have a Clampmeter you should have one that can measure DC current!

 

Yes 2% is better for the tail current, 1% better still but of course it takes longer to reach.

 

The important thing to bear in mind is that batteries that are not fully charged regularly, tend to sulphate and this causes loss of capacity. But also, there is not really such a thing as fully charged since a battery will accumulate charge more and more slowly as fully charged is approached and in theory at least it will therefore take an infinite charging time to reach fully charged. Therefore fully charged for practical purposes is a compromise. The best way to determine proximity to fully charged is when the charging current has fallen to a low value. 4% eg 26A for you, is quite high. 2% eg 13A for you is better. But if you keep charging your batteries eventually the current will fall to an amp or two, that is "proper fully charged" but at the expense of a hell of a lot of genny running.

 

So it is a compromise. I use 1.5% when we are not cruising, but after a long cruise the charge current will be well below that and the batteries therefore closer to "proper fully charged".

 

Yes your solar will help but only keep your batteries fully charged if it puts back a bit more than you take out. Some solar controllers go to float voltage rather prematurely and thus fail to fully charge.

 

In summary, keeping batteries in good order is not a simple matter! But you have the necessary tool ie the BMV which allows you to monitor the tail current (aka battery charging current near the end of charging), that being the best guide to fully charged.

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Thanks for your response bottle, do you know what 'dynamic current limiter' is ?

 

 

Its the limit the inverter will place on the genny. So if you had a small genny you can lower the setting so that it is not overloaded.

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