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Imperial gas pipe - alternative sources?


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I'm replacing the gas pipe from the storage container bulkhead fitting to the hob and oven which will soon be installed in our new galley. I made the mistake of assuming that the previous pipe-work was 10mm only to find that 10mm pipe doesn't fit the existing 3/8" bulkhead fitting, so rather than trying to source adaptors, it seems easiest to do the 2 - 3 metre run in 3/8" copper pipe.

 

However, local stockists of such pipe designated for gas use seem to be non-existent. Looking on eBay though, there's plenty of choice of imperial sized copper pipe, but I noticed that 3/8" copper brake pipe and 3/8" copper air conditioning pipe are noticeably cheaper than 3/8" copper pipe specified for LPG.

 

So, does anyone know if the price difference is just because brake & a/c pipe is normally sold in bigger quantities, or is there a difference in the actual pipe which would make it unsuitable for use with LPG?

 

Thanks in advance for all replies.

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However, local stockists of such pipe designated for gas use seem to be non-existent. Looking on eBay though, there's plenty of choice of imperial sized copper pipe, but I noticed that 3/8" copper brake pipe and 3/8" copper air conditioning pipe are noticeably cheaper than 3/8" copper pipe specified for LPG.

 

So, does anyone know if the price difference is just because brake & a/c pipe is normally sold in bigger quantities, or is there a difference in the actual pipe which would make it unsuitable for use with LPG?

 

Thanks in advance for all replies.

 

 

The cheap stuff possibly has a thinner wall thickness and isn't suitable for boat use.

 

Imperial pipe is used because the metric stuff isn't thick enough.

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BES is very good but be careful as they sell 3/8 pipe in both 0.7mm (22 gauge) and 0.9mm (20 gauge) wall thickness. Some suppliers only sell the thin wall stuff for gas. So it is no longer safe to assume all 3/8" imperial pipe is 20 gauge. If you like metric you can get 10mm pipe in 1.0mm wall thickness but I forget where. Normally 10mm pipe seems to be 0.7mm and used with inserts - our local caravan place uses this - not suitable for boats.

Edited by Chewbacka
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I buy imperial pipe and fittings from Aquafax, on the odd occasion I need it.

 

Again, they don't sell cut lengths, but ISTR they sell 10m rolls and some spare pipe always eventually comes in useful!


Appalling website to use though.

 

http://aquafax.co.uk/


Here's the page with the 10m rolls of 20swg wall thickness copper tube:

 

http://aquafax.co.uk/html/product_details.asp?ID=14047

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Thank you all for the replies various, but so far as I can see, nobody has actually answered my question as to whether alternative sources of 3/8" copper pipe are suitable (and legal?) for LPG in boats.

 

Here are some alternatives I've found or that been suggested (note I only need about 3 metres):

 

BES - 30 m x 3/8" (22 gauge : 0.7 mm) £96.16

Aquafax - 20G 3/8"OD thickness guage: 20swg pressure working: 1261 psi (???) 10M £ 43.12

 

Ebay - 3/8 x 15m coil copper pipe gas/plumbing. Cruiser, narrowboat, canal, caravan. EN12735-1 R220 3/8" x 0.032" £45.00

Ebay - Air Conditioning Copper Pipe 3/8" 5 metres (0.032" wall?). This copper pipe is manufactured to the latest British standard and being soft copper coils is easy to work with and bend £13.59
Ebay - 3/8" OD x 2.5 METRES SOFT 22G EASY FLARE COPPER BRAKE PIPE £11.99 OUTSIDE DIAMETER 3/8ins - 9.5mm WALL THICKNESS 0.028ins - 0.71mm £11.99

 

So far as I can see from these sources, most 3/8" copper pipe is typically 0.028" or 0.032" wall thickness and designed for pressures way in excess of anything an LPG installation is likely to experience.

 

Obviously, safety is of prime importance, but it looks to me that 3/8" brake sold for vehicle applications is very close to any specs I can find for LPG gas pipe, more accessible and cheaper.

 

All further comments/suggestions welcome.

 

Thanks.

Edited by Hairy Animal
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Bear in mind the tyhickness specified for boats is nothing to do with strength for containing the (trivial) LPG gas pressure, and everything to do with resisting metal fatigue from vibration, and good vibration resistance in joints made using compression fittings.

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Bear in mind the tyhickness specified for boats is nothing to do with strength for containing the (trivial) LPG gas pressure, and everything to do with resisting metal fatigue from vibration, and good vibration resistance in joints made using compression fittings.

Helpful point thanks.

 

Looking in the BSS Essential Guide doesn't give any particular specifications as to whether the pipe should, for instance, be annealed or not.

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Helpful point thanks.

 

Looking in the BSS Essential Guide doesn't give any particular specifications as to whether the pipe should, for instance, be annealed or not.

 

The BSS guide is not a 'how to build a boat' guide, it is a list of things for an 'inspector' to inspect - such as if a copper pipe is annealed is not obvious visually so it is not checked.

(Someone recently compared building a boat to the BSS as to try and build a car to the MOT test)

 

If you are wanting to be safe and comply with the necessary regulations then you need piping to the correct marine BS standard which I think MtB referred to earlier.

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Helpful point thanks.

 

Looking in the BSS Essential Guide doesn't give any particular specifications as to whether the pipe should, for instance, be annealed or not.

 

 

BSS is not the standard to which you build a boat. It's a shallow and trivial standard designed to detect only the most serious gas safety risks in an existing installation, quickly and cheaply.

 

But if passing BSS is all you're concerned about, you can use any pipe you like short of garden hose!

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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What is the definitive BS standard for a gas supply line these days?

 

Until 23rd June the following applies (after that - who knows ?) :

 

ISO 10239

 

http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_ics/catalogue_detail_ics.htm?csnumber=41913

 

ISO 10239:2008 covers permanently installed liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) systems and LPG burning appliances on small craft of hull length up to 24 m, except for systems used on LPG-fuelled propulsion engines or LPG-driven generators.

ISO 10239:2008 does not cover appliances with directly attached gas cylinders, such as portable self-contained camping stoves and portable gas lamps.

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Until 23rd June the following applies (after that - who knows ?) :

 

ISO 10239

 

 

these International Standards are exactly what they say - international.

 

they are used by Europe, but they are not unique to Europe.

 

most ISOs also carry EN and BS prefixes, implying that they are also the European and the British Standard.

 

It's

PD 54823:2016 "Guidance for the design, commissioning and maintenance of LPG systems in small craft"

 

How many more times will you have to repeat that before it becomes the common understanding amongst CWDF members? frusty.gif

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these International Standards are exactly what they say - international.

 

they are used by Europe, but they are not unique to Europe.

 

most ISOs also carry EN and BS prefixes, implying that they are also the European and the British Standard.

How many more times will you have to repeat that before it becomes the common understanding amongst CWDF members? frusty.gif

 

And it is the ISO 10239 and not the PD 54823, that the BSS refers examiners to check compliance with.

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And it is the ISO 10239 and not the PD 54823, that the BSS refers examiners to check compliance with.

the PD (Code of Practice) simply advises you how to apply the ISO.

it is in effect, the practical application of the ISO.

that is what a Code of Practice means in this context.

the examiner uses the same basic ISO reference as does the Code.

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What is the definitive BS standard for a gas supply line these days?

If you are building a new boat to sell then the standards referred to apply under the RCD. But in most other circumstances there is no particular requirement to comply with anything beyond the BSS.

 

The RCD is a piece of European legislation which has been adopted into UK law. So if on June 23 we vote out, it will continue to be UK law until such time as the British Government revokes it. Given the number of other things Government will have on its plate, I think its a fair bet that the European RCD rules will continue to apply for a

long time, whatever the outcome of the referendum.

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If you are building a new boat to sell then the standards referred to apply under the RCD. But in most other circumstances there is no particular requirement to comply with anything beyond the BSS.

 

The RCD is a piece of European legislation which has been adopted into UK law. So if on June 23 we vote out, it will continue to be UK law until such time as the British Government revokes it. Given the number of other things Government will have on its plate, I think its a fair bet that the European RCD rules will continue to apply for a

long time, whatever the outcome of the referendum.

the ISO/EN/BS Standard/s referred to above are the accepted industry standard for such work. The standards do not exist just for the purpose of the European RCD. Many of them are based on pre-existing British Standards.

Regardless of the future of the UK in or out of Europe, the same standard/s will still apply if you want to build to a recognised quality standard.

Of course, if you prefer to build to no recognised standard, but just good enough to satisfy the very simplistic requirements of the BSS, then that is up to you.

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Regardless of the future of the UK in or out of Europe, the same standard/s will still apply if you want to build to a recognised quality standard.

Of course, if you prefer to build to no recognised standard, but just good enough to satisfy the very simplistic requirements of the BSS, then that is up to you.

I agree, but the question posed abobve was not about "recognised quality standards", but definitive standards, and there is no definitive requirement to use these standards, except in the case of a new build.

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What is the definitive BS standard for a gas supply line these days?

I'll ask the question again

 

What is the *definitive* BS standard for a copper pipe in terms of wall thickness to be used on a narrow boat?

 

An actual quote of the relevant text would be helpful.

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I'll ask the question again

 

What is the *definitive* BS standard for a copper pipe in terms of wall thickness to be used on a narrow boat?

 

An actual quote of the relevant text would be helpful.

 

Google is your friend but I'll help you this time :

 

6.2 Piping

6.2.1 Only solid drawn copper or drawn stainless steel piping, which are galvanically compatible, shall be used for rigid supply lines. Wall thickness for piping shall be greater than 0,8 mm for piping up to 12 mm outside diameter and a minimum of 1,5 mm for an outside diameter greater than 12 mm.

 

Appendix A in the specification gives you a table calculating the correct size of pipe needed depending on the volume of gas needed / connected appliance Kw input

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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There seems a lot of mis-information regarding gas pipes on boats

Lets put the 10mm versus imperial argument to bed with facts.

Firstly some up-to-date standards from the BSOL website:

 

PD 54823:2016 - Guidance for the design, commissioning and maintenance of LPG systems in small craft

This document is supplement to BS EN 10239:2014 - it is not a British Standard in itself.

 

BS EN 10239:2014 - Small craft - Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) systems

Quote:

“6.2 Piping

6.2.1 Only solid drawn copper or drawn stainless steel piping, which are galvanically compatible, shall be used for rigid supply lines. Wall thickness for piping shall be greater than 0,6 mm for piping up to 12 mm outside diameter and a minimum of 0.9 mm for an outside diameter greater than 12 mm”.

 

Just for information, it used to be 0.8mm in the previous 2008 publication.

 

BS EN 1057:2010 - Copper and copper alloys — Seamless, round copper tubes for water and gas in sanitary and heating applications

Table 3 nominal wall thickness - Recommended minimum dimension for consideration in national codes of practice: 0.6

 

The long and the short is a 10mm gas pipe stamped BS EN 1057 is perfectly acceptable for use on a narrowboat.

Please correct if the above is wrong.

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I have bss 3.0 January 2013 and section 7.8 lpg pipework, joints and connections just state lpg pipework must be made of either seamless copper tube, or stainless steel tube, or copper nickel alloy. there is no mention of wall thickness.

 

Neil

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