Keel Black - Is it any good

[David Mack]

mfd - A couple of queries:

On the Keelblack website 'Buy Product' page, the coverage rates seem to be based on about 9 square metres per litre per coat. But the technical Data Sheet says "Typical spread rate is approximately 0.3ltr per sqm" which equates to 3.3 square meters per coat.  So which is it? 

The FAQ page says that Fertan is available from Keelblack, but it isn't listed on the 'Buy Product' page. Do you supply it? How much do I need (and how do I work that out when the boat hasn't come out of the water yet)?

 

[Punk Stig]

52 minutes ago, David Mack said:

mfd - A couple of queries:

On the Keelblack website 'Buy Product' page, the coverage rates seem to be based on about 9 square metres per litre per coat. But the technical Data Sheet says "Typical spread rate is approximately 0.3ltr per sqm" which equates to 3.3 square meters per coat.  So which is it? 

The FAQ page says that Fertan is available from Keelblack, but it isn't listed on the 'Buy Product' page. Do you supply it? How much do I need (and how do I work that out when the boat hasn't come out of the water yet)?

 

Fertan is available on eBay and a 1 litre tub should be sufficient (I used more on a 10'x58' but didn't just use it in the area for blacking) it's applied to damp steel so spreads a long way! 

[mdf]

As one of the owners of Keelblack I have to declare an interest but the following advice is practical and unbiased. The website coverage is incorrect. That figure (3 sqm/ litre) is the coverage when applied to rough timber. The coverage on steel is at least 11 sqm / litre on steel and on really smooth steel, people are getting better coverage. A 60ft boat will need around 8-9 litres for three coats on the sodes on;y. and about 20% les if the area above the top rubbing strake is glossed.. Preparation is really important to avoid the Keelblack being applied to an insubstantial base as is applying the product REALLY THINLY then allowing if possible at least 36 hours after the final coat to cure (longer in dank/ cold weather) . Application should be by either paintpad (works well on very smooth steel) or 4" microfibre roller. Tight bristled paint-style brushes tend to clog although some have had success with wallpaper paste type brushes where the bristle clusters are set apart.  The Keelblack office will always give free advice on best practice.

[mdf]

Thanks. Now I know for future queries. Is the resulting surface as well bonded to the steel as Fertan?

MF

[Sea Dog]

On 2017-7-14 at 17:18, WotEver said:

It is encapsulated within the vinyl primer that forms the base of Vactan. After treatment with Vactan you're left with a smooth (but not shiny) surface which acts as a primer for further paint. 

 

23 minutes ago, mdf said:

Thanks. Now I know for future queries. Is the resulting surface as well bonded to the steel as Fertan?

MF

Mdf, I'm presuming your post is in reply to the one from WotEver above. To show the original post (or an extract from it, say for a specific point) in your answer, use the Quote button (or the + button for multiple quotes as I've done here).

Vactan is many folk here's first choice of rust treatment. I slap it on any damage or rust I discover once the steel is getting too cold to paint at the back end of the year. The converted rust goes black and the resultant finish, which can be painted over in better conditions, can usually be left over winter without further attention. I'd have thought it an excellent base for your product, and I'd suggest you trial some so that you are in a position to advise your customer base from experience. 

Your product sounds very good and, after seeing it at Crick the first time it was shown, I've watched it with interest here hoping to see proper evidence of its effectiveness in our application. To date, such evidence remains hard to come by, so blacking with Keelblack remains a bit of a leap of faith. Specifically, we don't know what it looks like on a Narrowboat after 2 or 3 years to substantiate your longevity claims, or how it fares in terms of resistance to the galvanic issues which worry most of us. No-one wants to take their boat out of the water and regret what they did for their last blacking as the consequences are potentially dire.

I'm blacking my boat in 3 weeks time and I'd very much like to be able to use Keelblack but, to date, I'm not confident enough to coat my pride and joy and rest easy in my bed for the next couple of years. I expect many others here share that feeling. 

I hope my comments above are useful to you and wish you every success.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Sea Dog
Spellchecker re-correction

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

I'm blacking my boat in 3 weeks time and I'd very much like to be able to use Keelblack but, to date, I'm not confident enough to coat my pride and joy and rest easy in my bed for the next couple of years. I expect many others here share that feeling. 

I'm in much the same position. I have booked a survey which might tell me I only need to do minor works to the hull, in which case I want to clean off and black the sides and the bottom plate. But the survey might also say the boat needs rebottoming, in which case there isn't much point in doing anything more than a cosmetic blacking above the water line. And I don't want to be left with several litres of a product with a shelf life of 6 months or so.

[GUMPY]

Just done mine with KB very pleased with the results was cheaper, cleaner and quicker than normal bitumen. Washed grinded fertaned and five coats all done and dusted in 4.5 days leaving 60hrs to cure. Every time I use bitumen the Washer takes most of it off below the waterline so if KB stays on next time it will be a result.

[Sea Dog]

8 minutes ago, Loddon said:

 Every time I use bitumen the Washer takes most of it off below the waterline so if KB stays on next time it will be a result.

And therein lies the rub. So far, no-one has verified it's longevity beyond it 'looking ok' after a year. Quite a few have sung it's praises over the ease of application,  but no-one has yet reused it after being impressed by the state of their hull 2 or 3 years later. That's the important bit in my book - ease of application might equally apply to custard!

[GUMPY]

14 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

And therein lies the rub. So far, no-one has verified it's longevity beyond it 'looking ok' after a year. Quite a few have sung it's praises over the ease of application,  but no-one has yet reused it after being impressed by the state of their hull 2 or 3 years later. That's the important bit in my book - ease of application might equally apply to custard!

What I was trying to say is that oil based bitumen is crap, I have used most over the last 12 blackings but settled on Rylards PP along with Rytex as being the least worst.

Both my neighbour and I have gone KB it certainly can't be worse than oil based bitumen.

[Sea Dog]

22 minutes ago, Loddon said:

What I was trying to say is that oil based bitumen is crap, I have used most over the last 12 blackings but settled on Rylards PP along with Rytex as being the least worst.

Both my neighbour and I have gone KB it certainly can't be worse than oil based bitumen.

I have no problem in agreeing that bitumen is not a great answer, and my last blacking was with Rytex and Premium so we agree there too. I'm just not convinced that "it can't be any worse" is a good enough reason to use a product. Frankly, I'm itching to use Keelblack, and I'm sure a search on here would reveal that I have been so for a couple of years. It wouldn't take much more than a few photos of a Keelblacked boat with an intact coverage after 2 years, or even just not too shabby after 3, to convince me to use it.

With my naval engineer's hat on, had I been promoting a 'new' blacking solution for narrowboats, I'd have blacked a couple of volunteers' boats for free and hauled them out at regular intervals to provide evidence that my performance claims were justified. Unfortunately,  the best evidence I've seen so far is another forum member vouching for it looking ok after a year - and a few folk saying it goes on well, although some have also disagreed with that, iirc.

I'd go for two-pack if the prep wasn't so onerous, but I like to do my own blacking so I know exactly what's been covered up!  Some will recall a few threads not so long ago when someone had their boat grit blasted and two-packed by a marina in the north west and found his boat had been returned to its moorings after the work was complete, but was nestling firmly on the bottom due to his collander of a hull not being noticed.

Blacking is a serious business to me; I really, really want Keelblack to be a great solution, because I want something that good for my own boat. Should the good folk at Keelblack wish to cover the regular haul outs, I'd gladly offer my own hull and my expertise in naval trials (I am a former head of Maritime Trials and Ranges) to build evidence of their product's effectiveness. That's somewhat unlikely, but I'd certainly settle for verified evidence of the condition of some early adopters' hulls should there be some of 2 or 3 years vintage. Sadly, I fear my blacking is going to have to be a 'least worst' bitumen solution again this August. 

[GUMPY]

Will let you know in 2019 

[Sea Dog]

1 minute ago, Loddon said:

Will let you know in 2019 

 See, I knew someone would understand!

[frangar]

I'll stick with comastic. Just had a clean bill of health from a hull survey....it's a 6/6/4 shell with no overplating and 34 years old....sometimes it pays to stick to what's tried & tested

[Sea Dog]

1 hour ago, frangar said:

I'll stick with comastic. Just had a clean bill of health from a hull survey....it's a 6/6/4 shell with no overplating and 34 years old....sometimes it pays to stick to what's tried & tested

Cross ply tyres, hub brakes, leaded petrol...

[frangar]

1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

Cross ply tyres, hub brakes, leaded petrol...

Seeing as I've got a 40 year old Land Rover as a daily driver what's your point??

[ditchcrawler]

4 minutes ago, frangar said:

Seeing as I've got a 40 year old Land Rover as a daily driver what's your point??

[mdf]

Each to their own. When you do decide to try something different, KB (being a water-based emulsion) will go over Comastic whereas I believe no solvent based blacking can be applied over Comastic - so you at least have a choice. MDF

[peterboat]

My Keelblack is now a year old with no visible deterioration at the moment, but it does have zinger underneath. I will be pulling it out next year to redo it, I will be using keelblack as for me its just a cosmetic covering, so speed and ease of use is everything. However I will be able to report how well it has stuck on, and my neighbour John will be docking his at the same time and his was a rusty boat that was keelblacked last year, so july next year for progress reports

[ditchcrawler]

If Zinger is so good why do people keep pulling their boats out and blacking them

[peterboat]

7 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

If Zinger is so good why do people keep pulling their boats out and blacking them

Because in my case the sides are a bit battered the prop wants fettling again so its easier to dry dock it and sort it every couple of years, its not expensive and for a year or so it looks not bad

[Sea Dog]

11 hours ago, frangar said:

Seeing as I've got a 40 year old Land Rover as a daily driver what's your point??

Well, I mean no disrespect to your wonderful vintage machine, but you can't really think that radial tyres, disc brakes and taking the lead out of petrol are not huge improvements? That was my point

11 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

And you are very naughty!

[frangar]

9 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Well, I mean no disrespect to your wonderful vintage machine, but you can't really think that radial tyres, disc brakes and taking the lead out of petrol are not huge improvements? That was my point

Given how terrible modern fuel is I wish they had left the lead in! 

I will let someone else try Keelback for 20 years then tell me after a hull survey how it's doing. If I was having my boat blasted & coated now I would use a good 2 pack but when I had it done they were not as readily available. Given the time a coating has to last and what it protects I'm really not convinced that being able to brush it on quickly and thinly is a good thing. 

 

Ive also no idea what those emojis are supposed to mean....like a lot of modern life it's lost on me! 

Edited July 27, 2017 by frangar

[Sea Dog]

33 minutes ago, frangar said:

Given how terrible modern fuel is I wish they had left the lead in! 

I will let someone else try Keelback for 20 years then tell me after a hull survey how it's doing. If I was having my boat blasted & coated now I would use a good 2 pack but when I had it done they were not as readily available. Given the time a coating has to last and what it protects I'm really not convinced that being able to brush it on quickly and thinly is a good thing. 

 

Ive also no idea what those emojis are supposed to mean....like a lot of modern life it's lost on me! 

The lead was killing people and unleaded petrol seems fine in my cars and bikes which are far higher performance than anything I had that used 4*, so I can't agree with your first point. I do largely agree with your second point though.  I'd just like to find something better than bitumen that I could do myself.

As for those emoji things, they're supposed to help the show the emotion which might otherwise be lost in posts. So a smile or a wink at the end may help to show you're not being deliberately combative or aggressive in your argument.

Oh, and I think Ditchcrawler was giggling like a little girl, but I've no idea how to do that one on a tablet!

 

[matty40s]

Tablets like that are usually illegal...

[reg]

There you go. 

It can be selected from the emoji option at the top of the edit panel