Cost of red diesel

[Mac of Cygnet]

Or will the government just cave in and allow the ban on red diesel for boats? Of course if we have left it doesnt matter we can do what we want

 

Who is 'we'? The Government? You don't think the UK Government (of any hue) will say "OK you private boaters, now that the nasty EU is off our backs, you don't need to pay any duty on your fuel", do you? Dream on.

 

The case for private boats using duty-free fuel is very weak. I'm amazed it has existed for so long, EU or no EU.

[David Schweizer]

Nothing emotive about it at all the EU is taking us to court to ban the use of red diesel on boats started in 2014 luckily they are very slow at doing stuff

 

I am not sure that statement is factually accurate.

 

It is my understanding that the EU has started proceedings to refer the matter to the European Court of Justice in order to establish whether the UK's present arrangement permitting the use of red diesel in leisure boats complies with EU legislation.

Edited May 28, 2016 by David Schweizer

[furnessvale]

 

Who is 'we'? The Government? You don't think the UK Government (of any hue) will say "OK you private boaters, now that the nasty EU is off our backs, you don't need to pay any duty on your fuel", do you? Dream on.

 

The case for private boats using duty-free fuel is very weak. I'm amazed it has existed for so long, EU or no EU.

Once again I have to point out that, apart from the minor issue of avgas in light aircraft, boaters were singled out for special punishment with respect to paying duty on diesel.

 

Every other user of diesel for leisure purposes in an off road situation is permitted to use rebated red diesel for propulsion. Buy yourself an old army tank and blast round the fields to your heart's content burning red.

 

All these lambs to the slaughter, meekly lining up to pay white prices for propulsion, saying how fair the government is being with us, should instead be raising the roof asking why boaters have been singled out for such treatment.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Guest]

Once again I have to point out that, apart from the minor issue of avgas in light aircraft, boaters were singled out for special punishment with respect to paying duty on diesel.

 

Every other user of diesel for leisure purposes in an off road situation is permitted to use rebated red diesel for propulsion. Buy yourself an old army tank and blast round the fields to your heart's content burning red.

 

All these lambs to the slaughter, meekly lining up to pay white prices for propulsion, saying how fair the government is being with us, should instead be raising the roof asking why boaters have been singled out for such treatment.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

That is true.

Allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a minute: What is our argument for being allowed to use lower rate diesel for propulsion of a leisure boat?

Edited May 28, 2016 by Guest

[Ray T]

I agree roll on better solar, batteries and super conductor electric motors so we can be all electric

 

Not quite the same showing off an electric motor as a Bolinder, Russell Newbury etc with lots of shiny brass, copper and aluminum.

 

I know which I prefer. I haven't heard an electric motor go bomp, bomp, splutter,"damn it needs re starting", bomp bomp, bomp yet.

 

Edited May 28, 2016 by Ray T

[furnessvale]

That is true.

Allow me to play Devil's Advocate for a minute: What is our argument for being allowed to use lower rate diesel for propulsion of a leisure boat?

Because ALL other off road leisure users of diesel are permitted to use rebated fuel. Again why are boaters singled out (other than the fact that it is an EU directive)?

 

Given that is a fact, it is not for me to justify my demand for rebated fuel, it is for the government to explain why they have singled out boaters.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Guest]

Because ALL other off road leisure users of diesel are permitted to use rebated fuel. Again why are boaters singled out (other than the fact that it is an EU directive)?

 

Given that is a fact, it is not for me to justify my demand for rebated fuel, it is for the government to explain why they have singled out boaters.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

Mostly agree. Problem is if we use such an argument, we may just find that other activities simply loose the rebate too, which while we might feel a bit better, puts us back at square one financially. We need a solid argument as to why we should be entitled to use rebated fuel; I have yet to see a really convincing one. I disagree in part, in that I think it IS for us to justify that use, though take your point that the government should justify their actions.

I expect boats were targeted first because they are perhaps the biggest leisure user of rebated diesel fuel? Hardly fair, but we are were we are.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Guest

[John V]

How about ........ because the extra duty on DERV is because of what it says ......... Diesel oil for ROAD vehicles

[furnessvale]

Mostly agree. Problem is if we use such an argument, we may just find that other activities simply loose the rebate too, which while we might feel a bit better, puts us back at square one financially. We need a solid argument as to why we should be entitled to use rebated fuel; I have yet to see a really convincing one. I disagree in part, in that I think it IS for us to justify that use, though take your point that the government should justify their actions.

I expect boats were targeted first because they are perhaps the biggest leisure user of rebated diesel fuel? Hardly fair, but we are were we are.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

If someone comes along with a big stick and keeps hitting me on the head with it, while leaving the bloke stood next to me alone, I don't see that I have to provide a good reason for him to stop doing it.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[Guest]

This is the way I see it:

Next month we have a referendum as to whether we leave the EU (in case anybody wasn't aware ). Suppose we leave, some think we will get red back on the cut at the reduced rate almost automatically. I am not convinced, but let's assume they are right and there is a chance. We need to be proactive and be ready to lobby MP's etc. in order to get it rolling. But we DO need to get a bloody good POSITIVE argument together as to why we should get the rebate for a leisure activity.

Anyway it is purely academical as we ain't coming out

How about ........ because the extra duty on DERV is because of what it says ......... Diesel oil for ROAD vehicles

You would think that would work wouldn't you? Alas it didn't with the EU, because many other EU countries use road diesel on waterways. We were screwed from day one with that one. I have lobbied our MP and Euro MP with that very argument. I may as well have lobbied Peter Griffin

Will that argument work if we leave the EU? Somehow I doubt it, but am happy to be proved wrong. If we do leave I am still on it; nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I think any prospective government will want to keep the moderate amount of duty that they do raise from us, whether EU members or not.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Guest

[bizzard]

The stalling method might be the answer. It doesn't have to be (red diesel). It could be changed to blue or green and called something like CIF (compression ignition fuel) to get around the legislation and retain the cheaper price, for a good while anyway whilst the EU begin discussing and arguing about it all over again because its a different colour and not red anymore. And if after yonks of talks (inevitable) they conclude and prices are not in boaters favour then change the colour again and call it say SEF (stinky exhaust fuel) They'd all love it, all the long and endless discussion. The whole spectrum of colours could be covered and then the ''shades of'' could be covered. It could go on infinitem.

After all you could get paraffin in different colours, (Blue, pink, green and clear), it didn't make much difference to the price though.

[Guest]

The stalling method might be the answer. It doesn't have to be (red diesel). It could be changed to blue or green and called something like CIF (compression ignition fuel) to get around the legislation and retain the cheaper price, for a good while anyway whilst the EU begin discussing and arguing about it all over again because its a different colour and not red anymore. And if after yonks of talks (inevitable) they conclude and prices are not in boaters favour then change the colour again and call it say SEF (stinky exhaust fuel) They'd all love it, all the long and endless discussion. The whole spectrum of colours could be covered and then the ''shades of'' could be covered. It could go on infinitem.

After all you could get paraffin in different colours, (Blue, pink, green and clear), it didn't make much difference to the price though.

Esso Blue! that takes me back! My dad had a Yamaha outboard that was built to run on paraffin.

I have heard before that the current government had plans to dye the diesel blue rather than red. Sorry, I'm getting too political

Suppose we could all use cooking oil? would likely be cheaper than white on the cut?

Edited May 28, 2016 by Guest

[bizzard]

Esso Blue! that takes me back!

I have heard before that the current government had plans to dye the diesel blue rather than red. Sorry, I'm getting too political

Suppose we could all use cooking oil? would likely be cheaper than white on the cut?

They haven't even got the DERV colour right though. Its not white at all, its a sort of pale yellowy green colour, a bit like pee colour, the sort of pee colour after you've just eaten Asparagus. I never eat asparagus, the waterworks can't deal with its juices, its bad for you. When I was a kid and had just eaten a bar of sea-side rock (Bognor, New Brighton or Southport) for example, it all had the same effect on me, I would pee red pee for some time afterwards and it looked like red diesel, which really frightened me, I had night and daymares about it, you do when your little about things like that. I expect the red dye in the rock was made from beetles blood (Cochaneal). Along with Asparagus I don't eat sea-side rock anymore, of any colour.

[Alan de Enfield]

......................, I would pee red pee for some time afterwards and it looked like red diesel, which really frightened me, I had night and daymares about it, you do when your little about things like that. I expect the red dye in the rock was made from beetles blood (Cochaneal). Along with Asparagus I don't eat sea-side rock anymore, of any colour.

 

You are getting confused with the 'side effects' of beetroot.

[Guest]

They haven't even got the DERV colour right though. Its not white at all, its a sort of pale yellowy green colour, a bit like pee colour, the sort of pee colour after you've just eaten Asparagus. I never eat asparagus, the waterworks can't deal with its juices, its bad for you. When I was a kid and had just eaten a bar of sea-side rock (Bognor, New Brighton or Southport) for example, it all had the same effect on me, I would pee red pee for some time afterwards and it looked like red diesel, which really frightened me, I had night and daymares about it, you do when your little about things like that. I expect the red dye in the rock was made from beetles blood (Cochaneal). Along with Asparagus I don't eat sea-side rock anymore, of any colour.

Damn it, all that talk about rock, you have put that George Formby song in my head

I have had many a stick of Southport rock; I used to live near there as a child.

[bizzard]

 

You are getting confused with the 'side effects' of beetroot.

I love bootreet, I doesn't tint my pee red. I shall be having a beetroot sandwich for supper.

[David Schweizer]

The stalling method might be the answer. It doesn't have to be (red diesel). It could be changed to blue or green and called something like CIF (compression ignition fuel) to get around the legislation and retain the cheaper price, for a good while anyway whilst the EU begin discussing and arguing about it all over again because its a different colour and not red anymore. And if after yonks of talks (inevitable) they conclude and prices are not in boaters favour then change the colour again and call it say SEF (stinky exhaust fuel) They'd all love it, all the long and endless discussion. The whole spectrum of colours could be covered and then the ''shades of'' could be covered. It could go on infinitem.

After all you could get paraffin in different colours, (Blue, pink, green and clear), it didn't make much difference to the price though.

 

I still have a couple of gallons of Fina green paraffin, it is a lovely colour when put into a clear cut glass oil lamp fount.

[bizzard]

Damn it, all that talk about rock, you have put that George Formby song in my head

I have had many a stick of Southport rock; I used to live near there as a child.

I used to be dragged there visiting relations. The big marina lake and rides on the narrow gauge steam railway on the front.

 

I still have a couple of gallons of Fina green paraffin, it is a lovely colour when put into a clear cut glass oil lamp fount.

Yes, I still have and use an square Esso blue can.

[Guest]

I used to be dragged there visiting relations. The big marina lake and rides on the narrow gauge steam railway on the front.

Yes, I still have and use an square Esso blue can.

Used to sail our Mirror dinghy on the lake, and the kids had an Optimist. Best place to watch the air show from

[bizzard]

I have a friend here who once owned a traditional hardware- oil shop in London and when he had a paraffin delivery, it came clear and the driver would ask what type and colour he wanted, blue, pink or green, my friend would ponder this for a minute and plump for say the Aladdin pink colour as that was the brew what most of his customers happened to favour at the time because it burned cleaner or for some other reason. The driver would then add the favoured colour dye to the shops tank.

Used to sail our Mirror dinghy on the lake, and the kids had an Optimist. Best place to watch the air show from

They used to hold 24hr marathon sailing dinghy races around the big island on the lake.

[Guest]

I have a friend here who once owned a traditional hardware- oil shop in London and when he had a paraffin delivery, it came clear and the driver would ask what type and colour he wanted, blue, pink or green, my friend would ponder this for a minute and plump for say the Aladdin pink colour as that was the brew what most of his customers happened to favour at the time because it burned cleaner or for some other reason. The driver would then add the favoured colour dye to the shops tank.

They used to hold 24hr marathon sailing dinghy races around the big island on the lake.

Reminds me of a hairdressers where my wife worked many years ago. They had several different posh bottles of shampoo and the posh ladies would insist on a certain kind because it performed in some superior way. The bottles were however all filled with the same cheapo stuff from the wholesalers. The conditioner was a similar row of fancy bottles but they were filled with fabric conditioner.

 

I remember the 24 hr race.

[peterboat]

We were at Crick today visited a stall selling keel black water based marine friendly etc etc.

Apparently it passes EU tests and is cheaper than some of the standard blacking so maybe plans are afoot to change blacking

[bizzard]

Reminds me of a hairdressers where my wife worked many years ago. They had several different posh bottles of shampoo and the posh ladies would insist on a certain kind because it performed in some superior way. The bottles were however all filled with the same cheapo stuff from the wholesalers. The conditioner was a similar row of fancy bottles but they were filled with fabric conditioner.

 

I remember the 24 hr race.

I can believe it too. As for pubs, I'm often suspicious as to what I'm actually really drinking. A couple of weeks ago my two nephews visited me. we sailed down the river to a big popular pub. It was a weekday lunch time. My nephews being greedy ordered fish and chips from the evening menu at £12 odd a head. I plumped for the lunchtime fish and chips at £5 odd a go. When the meals eventually arrived, all three were precisely the same, 12 chips, 32 peas and exactly the same size bits of fish. As I was paying the bill I tackled the waiter about it, all he said was that he'd tell the chef and that it was daft to choose meals from the evening menu at lunchtime. We departed with three nice Fullers London Pride pint beer glasses.

[Guest]

I can believe it too. As for pubs, I'm often suspicious as to what I'm actually really drinking. A couple of weeks ago my two nephews visited me. we sailed down the river to a big popular pub. It was a weekday lunch time. My nephews being greedy ordered fish and chips from the evening menu at £12 odd a head. I plumped for the lunchtime fish and chips at £5 odd a go. When the meals eventually arrived, all three were precisely the same, 12 chips, 32 peas and exactly the same size bits of fish. As I was paying the bill I tackled the waiter about it, all he said was that he'd tell the chef and that it was daft to choose meals from the evening menu at lunchtime. We departed with three nice Fullers London Pride pint beer glasses.

Probably all Watney's Red barrel

[Mac of Cygnet]

Having two kinds of diesel is such a faff, isn't it? All those complicated rules and administration, and the expense of inspectors and collecting duty.

 

It would be much simpler to get rid of red and just get those entitled to a rebate to claim it. Like farmers and fishing boats.

 

In fact I'm surprised that nice Mr Osborne hasn't thought of it already, since he needs to bring in as much money as possible, EU or no EU...........