Invalidating a BSS certificate / selling a boat

[Sir Percy]

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=84809#entry1822432

 

Hi, what's the law / regs / etiquette on selling a boat with a current BSS certificate, but which has been invalidated?

 

(See post re advert on Gumtree)

 

When asked about BSS, seller said BSS until 2019, but will need work to pass then.

 

Seems work on the gas install has been done subsequent to the exam.

 

Cheers

[Arthur Brown]

BSS is like the MOT, a good standard to work to. But sometimes you buy things knowing that there are jobs to be done and leaving budget to do those jobs. If there is work to be done then the seller is good to point it out. I'd rather buy an old wreck than an old wreck painted throughout in magnolia to cover things up.

[GoodGurl]

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=84809#entry1822432

 

Hi, what's the law / regs / etiquette on selling a boat with a current BSS certificate, but which has been invalidated?

 

(See post re advert on Gumtree)

 

When asked about BSS, seller said BSS until 2019, but will need work to pass then.

 

Seems work on the gas install has been done subsequent to the exam.

 

Cheers

it means the current BSS is ok till 2019 but will need work doing to it before it is due again.

[Paul C]

Legally, the BSS is valid for 4 years so its not going to be an obstacle for obtaining a licence (unless you really upset CRT about something and they decide to make a point of it).

 

Etiquette - obviously boats are secondhand and have faults, some of these faults may prevent a BSS pass in future so there's an obligation for a seller to accurately describe the boat, not knowingly mislead etc. Since the seller in your link says "NOTE though: It would never pass a safety inspection though (will explain on viewing) but works just fine." he says we will explain (although not on the advert) I'd say its a non-issue in terms of legality etc, but you'd be advised to do the safety jobs as a priority. As he said, the boat is usable in all respects other than the gas system so it could be safely bought and taken away then that seen to.

[cuthound]

Sounds like a boat where any potential buyer should get his own survey to establish the extent and cost of the "non-compliance".

 

Definitely a case of caveat emptor (as is always the case when buying anything pre-loved).

 

Edited to change an autocorrect induced "emporium" back to my intended "emptor".

Edited May 21, 2016 by cuthound

[Horace42]

It's the same principle as an MOT for a car. Caveat emptor.

Mine is due later this year. It is surprising how fast four years go by.

[dor]

Just be aware that if the boat is not up to BSS standard (particularly with the gas) your insurance could refuse to pay up in the event of an accident.

[system 4-50]

Obviously you can start works on your boat that until complete do not meet the BSS requirements and I would not expect a reasonable insurance company to quibble provided there is no additional risk.

For example, if you start installing gas lines but have no gas on board then you should be ok.

But if you part-install a gas system and start using the cooker for preparing meals before the system is sufficiently complete to pass the BSS test then I would expect the insurance company to quite reasonably wash their hands of any claim, gas related or not.

[Alan de Enfield]

I am fairly sure that the BSS states (somewhere) that any modifications to (particularly) the gas system means that a new BSS test must be undertaken as the old test is no longer valid for the system 'as now installed'.

 

The BSS is (quote) "just a snap shot in time".

 

In effect, a bit like putting your number plate on your mates car, passing the MOT (fraudulently) and then putting the plates back on your car, or borrowing your mates wheels for the test then putting your bald ones back on after the test.

Your car has an MOT but is not safe and in the event of an accident, the insurers will see you had bald tyres and bingo - no insurance.

[MtB]

BSS is like the MOT, a good standard to work to.

 

 

I disagree. The BSS is a very minimal and inadequate standard with some whopping safety holes in it, along with some tediously silly other requirements that present very little risk.

 

PD5482-2005 Part 3 is a good standard to comply with. It addresses all the serious gas safety risks on boats I can think of, unlike BSS.

 

BSS for example allows gas pipes in bilges and instantaneous water heaters in shower rooms, both of which are a serious risk and are banned under PD5482.

[FadeToScarlet]

BSS for example allows gas pipes in bilges and instantaneous water heaters in shower rooms, both of which are a serious risk and are banned under PD5482.

Out of interest, why does it ban non room sealed (presumably) heaters in shower rooms? Yes, it's a small enclosed space- but also ventilated when in use to let the steam out. And I used to be able to see the flames whilst having a shower every day, so I'd've noticed any yellowing of incomplete combustion.

[nicknorman]

Out of interest, why does it ban non room sealed (presumably) heaters in shower rooms? Yes, it's a small enclosed space- but also ventilated when in use to let the steam out. And I used to be able to see the flames whilst having a shower every day, so I'd've noticed any yellowing of incomplete combustion.

 

...might also be ventilated when in use... What about when it's -10 outside?

[eggpie]

I am fairly sure that the BSS states (somewhere) that any modifications to (particularly) the gas system means that a new BSS test must be undertaken as the old test is no longer valid for the system 'as now installed'

The wording (at least according to this nbw page

http://www.narrowboatworld.com/index.php/leatest/5871-have-you-invalidated-your-bss-certificate ) is

 

"The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made"

 

The previous owner got his last BSS certificate in 2015, and has "mostly refitted" it since then, so in any meaningful sense that safety inspection is worthless.

 

Knowing that he hasn't bothered to test the gas install, or fix a stove that would "never pass a safety inspection" ,either of which could take out him and/or his neighbours, what does that say about his corner-cutting attitude towards maintenance and safety elsewhere on his DIY fitout? He's epoxied the skin tank and rewired using the "best wiring". Check out the sagging,exposed pushfit water pipes in the bathroom picture. It's not a bargain-priced boat either.

 

Whether the bit about BSS being invalidated is ever enforced, however, is a different matter entirely..

Edited May 22, 2016 by eggpie

[Alan de Enfield]

The wording (at least according to this nbw page

http://www.narrowboatworld.com/index.php/leatest/5871-have-you-invalidated-your-bss-certificate ) is

 

"The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made"

 

The previous owner got his last BSS certificate in 2015, and has "mostly refitted" it since then, so in any meaningful sense that safety inspection is worthless.

 

Knowing that he hasn't bothered to test the gas install, or fix a stove that would "never pass a safety inspection" ,either of which could take out him and/or his neighbours, what does that say about his corner-cutting attitude towards maintenance and safety elsewhere on his DIY fitout? He's epoxied the skin tank and rewired using the "best wiring". Check out the sagging,exposed pushfit water pipes in the bathroom picture. It's not a bargain-priced boat either.

 

Whether the bit about BSS being invalidated is ever enforced, however, is a different matter entirely..

 

Thank you - I think it may be worthwhile posting the full article as many folks on here will not click-onto NBW site :

 

Have you invalidated your BSS Certificate?

Saturday, 15 June 2013 08:29

THE Nationwide Alliance of Boat Surveyors and Examiners (NABSE) were greatly encouraged to read the May issue of News from the Fens where Kelvin Alexander-Duggan highlighted a situation all too familiar to NABSE Boat Safety Scheme Examiners, writes Chairman Graham Freeman.

The situation being when BSS Examiners encounter non-compliant changes to craft configuration that have been made at some point during the maximum four years validity period of the Boat Safety Scheme Certificate (BSSC).

Invalidate the certificate

As Kelvin rightly points out, many owners believe that their BSSC is valid for four years and, by doing what the majority of boat owners do in the form of alterations/improvements to their craft, they sometimes (unknowingly) invalidate their BSSC because they do not realise that such actions may contravene the BSSC 'terms and conditions' which are to be found on the rear of the 'old' (pre 1st April 2013) Certificate and which clearly state:

The validity of this certificate may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained and/or alterations are made ...

 

For BSSC's awarded after 1st April 2013, a revised set of terms and conditions entitled About the BSS Examination and its Limitations is issued to the owner in either hard copy format or emailed as a .pdf document and these state:

Revised terms

The owners on-going responsibility: it is crucial to maintain the vessel in good condition in accordance with the safety requirements; and, any other licensing, registration or mooring conditions of the relevant navigation or harbour authority. The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made....

NABSE strongly supports Kelvin's recommendation for purchasers not to place undue reliance on any accompanying BSSC as proof that a boat is compliant with the requirements of the Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) at the time of purchase. Prospective buyers are encouraged to check that the boat's paperwork actually reflects the configuration of the boat for sale. If, for example, the boat has had an engine change, major electrical re-work, a galley re-fit or any of its LPG appliances changed/upgraded since its last examination, the certificate may not be valid if the work was carried out in a non-BSS compliant manner (which could also have insurance implications).

Establish validity

Accordingly, purchasers should request the surveyor conducting their pre-purchase survey to establish the validity of any certificate and should consider the need to budget for the eventuality that a new BSSC may be required to bring the boat into compliance before the purchase is completed to reduce the need to redress any issues downstream through Trading Standards/Civil Court proceedings.

For owners who are contemplating changes to their craft's configuration, NABSE recommends that they ensure that the work is carried out by a company/individual who is competent to carry out the work and understands the requirements of the Boat Safety Scheme. For those intending to implement such changes themselves, they should, in the first instance, seek guidance from the BSS Office (http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/contact-us) to establish if the intended work may impact upon the validity of their current BSSC.

 

Where owners are thinking of making changes around the time that their current BSSC is due renewal, NABSE recommends that they contact a BSS Examiner to ascertain if the work they are contemplating has the possibility to invalidate their 'new' BSSC.

Details of NABSE BSS Examiners can be found at:

http://www.nabse.co.uk/Pages/map.aspx.

 

Basically - don't get a BSSC, then (for example) rip out the cooker and replace it with a portable heater

[cuthound]

If you choose a surveyor who can all undertake a BSS, then you can kill two birds with one stone.

[MtB]

Out of interest, why does it ban non room sealed (presumably) heaters in shower rooms? Yes, it's a small enclosed space- but also ventilated when in use to let the steam out. And I used to be able to see the flames whilst having a shower every day, so I'd've noticed any yellowing of incomplete combustion.

 

 

Nick is right, uninformed people tend to block up air vents to outside as they don't want cold drafts into their bath and shower rooms.

 

Then, when the water heater is choking for oxygen and gobbing out carbon monoxide, the showering person is in the same tiny room with it, but behind a shower curtain so they can't see the appliance in difficulty, and tends not to notice the sound of it either as it is concealed by the noise of the shower water. All in all the person inside the shower is in their own little bubble world with a CO source they don't notice.

 

When the Morco is outside the shower room 1) there is less likelihood than someone will deliberately block up the air supply, 2) if they do, the bigger room volume dilutes the CO, 3) the bigger room volume slows down the effect, 4) the CO is not being produced in the small room the occupier is showering in, 5) someone else in the boat is more likely to notice the water heater behaving oddly than the showerer when the heater is located outside the shower room.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Mike the Boilerman

[nbfiresprite]

The article to which the NABSE refer to.

 

Pitfalls of buying at the lower end of the market

 

Spring is the traditional time to buy a boat, the golden rule having been, when buying second hand, get it surveyed. Yet if someone is on a small budget (10-12k) the cost of having a boat survey eats a far amount of the limited funds that buyer has. The buyer is then temped to just rely on the Boat Safety Certificate (BSC). This can be a major mistake if the BSC is more than a few weeks old, for the BSC is like the MOT only a valid record of compliance for the date of the exam, despite the misprint on certificate (Date of Expiry rather than Date of next Exam).

Any major changes in the boat, like the installing of gas or electrics, require that the boat be re-examined within the four year period. A few boat owners don't do this and have sold on boats with dangerous electrics or gas systems after passing the BSC before these were installed. This has happened to some people that moor in the marina where I am based.

To take one case, the owner brought a re-plated Colecraft with a wooden top with BSC with 3 ½ years to run on the certificate. A few weeks later the electrics fried along with the cheap and nasty inverter. After removing the conduct covers, a bad mix of under-rated cables of different sizes joined together simply by twisting the wires together was seen. This was some of the worst wiring that I have seen.

It was lucky for the owner that the boat did not catch fire, just plenty of smoke and a nasty smell. The boat had to be completely rewired and a new electric panel installed. As for the seller she was long gone and 12k richer. So the moral of this tale is simply, if you have a small budget, take someone with you when you go to view a boat, who knows what to look for, and then if they are happy, make an offer, but to be on the safe side if you have the funds get it surveyed after making the offer.

 

 

 

 

Thank you - I think it may be worthwhile posting the full article as many folks on here will not click-onto NBW site :

 

Have you invalidated your BSS Certificate?

Saturday, 15 June 2013 08:29

THE Nationwide Alliance of Boat Surveyors and Examiners (NABSE) were greatly encouraged to read the May issue of News from the Fens where Kelvin Alexander-Duggan highlighted a situation all too familiar to NABSE Boat Safety Scheme Examiners, writes Chairman Graham Freeman.

The situation being when BSS Examiners encounter non-compliant changes to craft configuration that have been made at some point during the maximum four years validity period of the Boat Safety Scheme Certificate (BSSC).

Invalidate the certificate

As Kelvin rightly points out, many owners believe that their BSSC is valid for four years and, by doing what the majority of boat owners do in the form of alterations/improvements to their craft, they sometimes (unknowingly) invalidate their BSSC because they do not realise that such actions may contravene the BSSC 'terms and conditions' which are to be found on the rear of the 'old' (pre 1st April 2013) Certificate and which clearly state:

The validity of this certificate may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained and/or alterations are made ...

For BSSC's awarded after 1st April 2013, a revised set of terms and conditions entitled About the BSS Examination and its Limitations is issued to the owner in either hard copy format or emailed as a .pdf document and these state:

Revised terms

The owners on-going responsibility: it is crucial to maintain the vessel in good condition in accordance with the safety requirements; and, any other licensing, registration or mooring conditions of the relevant navigation or harbour authority. The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made....

NABSE strongly supports Kelvin's recommendation for purchasers not to place undue reliance on any accompanying BSSC as proof that a boat is compliant with the requirements of the Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) at the time of purchase. Prospective buyers are encouraged to check that the boat's paperwork actually reflects the configuration of the boat for sale. If, for example, the boat has had an engine change, major electrical re-work, a galley re-fit or any of its LPG appliances changed/upgraded since its last examination, the certificate may not be valid if the work was carried out in a non-BSS compliant manner (which could also have insurance implications).

Establish validity

Accordingly, purchasers should request the surveyor conducting their pre-purchase survey to establish the validity of any certificate and should consider the need to budget for the eventuality that a new BSSC may be required to bring the boat into compliance before the purchase is completed to reduce the need to redress any issues downstream through Trading Standards/Civil Court proceedings.

For owners who are contemplating changes to their craft's configuration, NABSE recommends that they ensure that the work is carried out by a company/individual who is competent to carry out the work and understands the requirements of the Boat Safety Scheme. For those intending to implement such changes themselves, they should, in the first instance, seek guidance from the BSS Office (http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/contact-us) to establish if the intended work may impact upon the validity of their current BSSC.

 

Where owners are thinking of making changes around the time that their current BSSC is due renewal, NABSE recommends that they contact a BSS Examiner to ascertain if the work they are contemplating has the possibility to invalidate their 'new' BSSC.

Details of NABSE BSS Examiners can be found at:

http://www.nabse.co.uk/Pages/map.aspx.

 

Basically - don't get a BSSC, then (for example) rip out the cooker and replace it with a portable heater

Edited May 23, 2016 by nbfiresprite