Electrickery stuff - what is this?

[Sea Dog]

I'm not really using the SOC to decide when to stop charging, it has usually gone to 100% over an hour before I stop I just use that fact that over the past 3 years 4 hours running during the day has been more than adequate to keep the batteries charged.

 

Ah, I see. Sorry if I was teaching granny to suck eggs there WV.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

I was rather betting on the item I photographed being the culprit for the noise but sadly that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

To cover the additional suggestions made:-

 

The noise does sound like the call a moorhen makes as it roots about the canal banks however if I were a moorhen I'd rather nest in an elsan point than in my engine bilge . Below the engine is the contained bilge area where I inevitably drop a quantity of oil or diesel whenever I change the filters, I do try to get it back out again but it is almost impossible to remove all of it (there is currently about half a litre swilling about). I can clearly see the bilge area under the stern gland and there isn't anything nesting there (neither is there any water there) and a couple of years ago I failed to notice that the water pump was leaking until the bilge area under the rear cabin was almost full, no alarms were triggered however. Preparing the area in anticipation of the noise being made wouldn't have helped when it decided to make it in Braunston Tunnel and yet today we go through Blisworth tunnel without a peep (so to speak)

 

The intermittent nature of the noise is the real problem. I can't even go into a boatyard to ask them to have a look at it until I can establish where it is coming from since it is an expensive exercise to ask a marine electrician to listen to the noise being made and then sit and listen for a couple of hours (at probably £40 per hour)whilst it doesn't make any.

 

My thinking now is that since it seems to be an electrical noise I can afford to wait for whatever it is to fail completely since the engine (a Lister LPW4) would continue to run even if I disconnected all of the electrics (once the engine is running) so, provided it doesn't burst into flames I can continue to a location where I can get a marine electrician to look at it if I can't fix it myself. Worst case scenario I can think of is a wrecked alternator which I can change myself (£78 last time).Looking back over my records it has been making this noise since 10th March without getting any better or worse.

 

And finally, "....Ah, I see. Sorry if I was teaching granny to suck eggs there WV. ..." I'd happily suck a box of a dozen eggs to find the source of this sound

[ditchcrawler]

 

 

If the noise is still present I fear it will be an alternator fault despite the fact that you say there is no glow on the warning lamp. I think that to go further with this we need ACCURATE first start up and revving voltage and current, revving just before last shutdown voltage and current plus the rated output of the alternator(s). Oh, it could also be a slipping and gripping alternator belt.

 

I'll go with that. electronic sounder making a noise on a voltage spike to fast/short to heat a filament lamp

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Still struggling with this 'pipping' noise but today I may have got a clue. Having checked the engine header tank I find that the level has risen by half a litre.I syphoned out some of the coolant and checked it, no trace of any contaminants (oil,diesel etc) just pure coolant so I have a magic coolant fairy filling up my system . I then checked the only other system I could think of with coolant in it, the Eberspacher, and sure enough the header tank for that was empty. Now I thought that these were two separate systems (the engine coolant system and the Eberspacher both going into the calorifier through separate pipes). If there is a low water level alarm on the Eberspacher then it is possible that may be what the 'pipping' sound is, but now I get the problem of how the coolant got from the Eberspacher system into the engine cooling system (if that is what has happened), anyone got any ideas?

[Tony Brooks]

Still struggling with this 'pipping' noise but today I may have got a clue. Having checked the engine header tank I find that the level has risen by half a litre.I syphoned out some of the coolant and checked it, no trace of any contaminants (oil,diesel etc) just pure coolant so I have a magic coolant fairy filling up my system . I then checked the only other system I could think of with coolant in it, the Eberspacher, and sure enough the header tank for that was empty. Now I thought that these were two separate systems (the engine coolant system and the Eberspacher both going into the calorifier through separate pipes). If there is a low water level alarm on the Eberspacher then it is possible that may be what the 'pipping' sound is, but now I get the problem of how the coolant got from the Eberspacher system into the engine cooling system (if that is what has happened), anyone got any ideas?

 

Not if its a twin coil calorifier or its a single coil one using a heat exchanger.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

Not if its a twin coil calorifier or its a single coil one using a heat exchanger.

I'm glad it's not just me then . It makes no sense to me at all as it is definitely a two coil calorifier (plus an electric immersion element that doesn't currently work). I've followed the hoses as far as I can and cannot see how the coolant from the Espersbacher can get from the expansion tank into the expansion tank of the engine coolant system, but then if that hasn't happened, where has the coolant from the Esperbacher gone and why was the engine expansion tank over-full.

 

I'll see what happens tomorrow when I get on the move again, see it the 'pipping' sound has stopped (as it became a lot more regular today).

[Tony Brooks]

I assume that you checked the level stone cold otherwise it could be just the expansion of the heated coolant.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

 

I assume that you checked the level stone cold otherwise it could be just the expansion of the heated coolant.

 

I check the coolant level every morning and my original thought was it was just because the weather had got a bit warmer the water may have expanded but the level just kept on creeping up.

[Tony Brooks]

Is the header bank above or below the waterline? If below it might have nothing to do with the central heating but might be a punctured skin tank/cooler pipes. Otherwise I watch with great interest.

[mickp]

Maybe a holed coil in calorfier ,i had this happen ,might only be a small nick in the coil but will cause this filling up of engine coolant.not sure if your heating is a seperate fault tho

[Tony Brooks]

Maybe a holed coil in calorfier ,i had this happen ,might only be a small nick in the coil but will cause this filling up of engine coolant.not sure if your heating is a seperate fault tho

 

If the engine calorifier coil is leaking then the coolant shoudl be overflowing all the time the domestic water pump is on because atypical "radiator" pressure cap is rated at 1 bar or less the pumps tend to operate at around 2 bar.

 

It would need both coils to be punctured for the water to get from the heating to engine header tanks and that seems exceptionally unlikely. Even so if it was true the domestic water pump would keep the heating header tank full & overflowing awhile it is turned on.

 

 

[mickp]

 

If the engine calorifier coil is leaking then the coolant shoudl be overflowing all the time the domestic water pump is on because atypical "radiator" pressure cap

is rated at 1 bar or less the pumps tend to operate at around 2 bar.

 

It would need both coils to be punctured for the water to get from the heating to engine header tanks and that seems exceptionally unlikely. Even so if it was true the domestic water pump would keep the heating header tank full & overflowing awhile it is turned on.

 

 

i think in my case is was a small perferation and and the first i knew about it was when i checked coolant and took the cap off a lot of coolant over flowed out of the bottle under a bit of pressure Edited May 12, 2016 by mickp

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Sadly the coolant issue hasn't made any difference to the random 'pipping' sound which briefly started again about 10 minutes after I fired the engine up today then stopped for the rest of the day. As I've said before it is the random nature of the sound that is so puzzling, some days it may occur soon after starting the engine, other days it may not start up for several hours and some days it may not happen at all. If I could just pin it down along the lines of 'when I do x, y or z I get this strange sound' but it seems unconnected to anything that I may be doing.

 

The engine header tank is about 18 inches above the level of the gunwales so I don't think it is a leaking skin tank. I have also checked the water from the calorifier for any discolouration (the coolant is bright pink) but no obvious sign of that although I suspect that the pressure inside the calorifier is greater that in the engine coolant system so the coolant shouldn't leak into the tank. Having checked the coolant level it is still pretty much what it was yesterday after I'd syphoned some off but then last time it took quite a while before I fully realised that the header tank had filled up. The puzzle continues

[Wanderer Vagabond]

There has at last been a positive development with this 'pipping' saga, this morning the sound once again started and for the first time illuminated a light (briefly) on the instrument panel. The light that came on was the one for the engine alternator so there is clearly something of a problem on that circuit. I've now removed the connector from the alternator and cleaned up the contacts and at the moment the 'pipping' sound has stopped. I now wait in hope

[Wanderer Vagabond]

My earlier so called 'positive developments' came to nothing and this annoying pipping sound has continued intermittently throughout the summer, and to be honest I am now at a total loss as to what the cause is . Before travelling along the Thames Tideway I changed the alternator drive belt and this seemed also to have stopped the 'pipping' sound for a while, but then it started up again. I (foolishly) tightened the drive belt in the hope that would stop the sound, and again it briefly did but then it came back. Unfortunately I overtightened the drive belt and knackered the water pump bearing so have now had to replace that, and, surprise, surprise, after I'd done that the sound stopped for quite a reasonable period (from The River Wey until I reached Abingdon) but like a bad penny it is back again . How on earth an alarm on the boat can be intermittently sounding for over 5 months now without whatever the cause is failing completely has me baffled.

 

With little or no knowledge of what goes on inside an alternator (a bit of a 'black box' to me) is there anything within the alternator that could be causing this irritating noise? What is the diode and what happens if it fails? The alternator concerned is 10 months old so is probably under warranty but, since it only makes the noise intermittently, what chance have I got taking it back when I just know that when they run it at the workshop it will probably work perfectly and they will tell me there is nothing wrong with it.

[Tony Brooks]

I note that you do not seem to have confirmed that you have taken any multi-plugs on the main wiring harness apart and ensured the contacts are clean and tight, As its intermittent I would suggest that it is most likely to be a poor (lose) connection or an intermittent short to metal on one of the instrument cables. However I get a bit fed up when a logical fault finding procedure is suggested but its rejected on the ground that the senders were replaced a short while ago. By that logic it can't be an alternator because they have been changed yet you still want to know how one works.

 

As far as what is inside the alternator there are plenty of online resources describing their operation, including on my website, so I am not going to repeat it all here. There are either 6 or 9 diodes inside them plus however small ones are used in the regulator. There will almost certainly be three diodes as part of the instrument cluster.

 

I can not see if you have solar? if you have try putting a fairly heavy electrical load on (several amps). If the sound goes away it may well just be fully charged batteries. Similar but not identical symptoms caused SirN to suggest it might be sticky brushes in an alternator but I do not think the frequency of your noise is fast enough but who knows.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

I note that you do not seem to have confirmed that you have taken any multi-plugs on the main wiring harness apart and ensured the contacts are clean and tight, As its intermittent I would suggest that it is most likely to be a poor (lose) connection or an intermittent short to metal on one of the instrument cables. However I get a bit fed up when a logical fault finding procedure is suggested but its rejected on the ground that the senders were replaced a short while ago. By that logic it can't be an alternator because they have been changed yet you still want to know how one works.On #64 it was became clear that whatever the fault is, it is likely to be on the engine alternator circuitry. If I have a cross-over fault whereby a short on either my temperature or oil warning system causes the alternator light to come on (without either of the other instruments registering) then finding that fault is going to be well outside my pay grade

 

As far as what is inside the alternator there are plenty of online resources describing their operation, including on my website, so I am not going to repeat it all here. There are either 6 or 9 diodes inside them plus however small ones are used in the regulator. There will almost certainly be three diodes as part of the instrument cluster.

 

I can not see if you have solar? if you have try putting a fairly heavy electrical load on (several amps). If the sound goes away it may well just be fully charged batteries. Similar but not identical symptoms caused SirN to suggest it might be sticky brushes in an alternator but I do not think the frequency of your noise is fast enough but who knows. I don't have solar on the boat so I'm not sure what I'd do on that front. One slightly dodgy activity which does sometimes stop the 'pipping' noise (temporarily)is to briefly turn the ignition off and then back on again.

I have had so many 'false dawns' throughout the summer with this problem, cleaning terminals which seem to solve the problem then it starts up again or tightening belts that again seem to solve the problem before it starts up again, that I'm now beginning to hope that whatever the problem is will completely fail soon to solve the issue. The longest that I went without the noise was after changing the water pump when the noise disappeared altogether for about 10 days, since it will often disappear on its own for 5 or 6 days, this wasn't a particularly great achievement.

 

I sort of like the suggestion that it may just be fully charged batteries but then on some days the noise will start almost immediately on starting up in the morning and continue for about 30 or 40 minutes then stop and on other days it doesn't start until the engine has been running for 2 - 2 1/2 hours or more. Whether that could equate to the alternator detecting that the batteries were fully charged and then cutting out (thereby activating the light and alarm) I'm not entirely sure.

[Tony Brooks]

Which tends to bring my thoughts back to an intermittent short to negative/earth/metal somewhere between the warning lamps/instruments and their senders.

 

Interestingly I found a similar noise while my son had the boat and it turned out to be the metal air cleaner spout touching the flywheel but you do not have an exposed flywheel. I have also known metal things stored in the engine room fall down and touch the coupling/prop shaft. I anything touching the bottom engine pulley where its hard to see by any chance.

 

I have had similar noises on the original BMC 1.5 marinistion where a rear engine mount had collapsed allowing a bolt head to vibrate on the engine bed.

 

Stern gears with cutless bearings behind the gland can also make chirping sounds, normally at low speed, when they suffer a lack of water passing through them - do you have a Vetus gland?

 

If the oil pressure sender is of the thermal rather than piezo type then they could cause that sort of noise in the warning buzzer but its years since I have seen a thermal transmitter and slow gauge. If your gauge moves fast it should not have a thermal transmitter.

 

I fear you will just have to wait until it gets less intermittent so you can spend time crawling around to locate the actual source.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

Today seems to epitomise the phrase 'be careful what you wish for' . On post #67 I said,"....I'm now beginning to hope that whatever the problem is will completely fail soon to solve the issue....", well today gave me the opportunity to reconsider. Fired the engine up first thing and all was well, but as we cast off the Adverc light (supposedly disconnected) began to flash. Checked the meter and it seemed that the Domestic alternator had stopped charging. Read the manual on the Adverc which suggested that if such a problem occurred the Adverc connection plug can be removed and the alternator should then regulate itself. Tried that to no avail and the alternator still failed to charge. Decided to try to make it to the nearest boatyard for assistance and whilst doing so was advised by the crew that we now had no power at all, the 12v system had also died and lights, water pump,horn were now not working. Carried on trying to get to a boatyard whilst considering the problem and realised that the only thing that could cut off all power would be the Battery Isolator switch so, upon reaching the next lock, down into the engine compartment and sure enough the Isolator switch had broken away and was no longer contacting. With a lot of gaffer tape (if you can't fix it with gaffer tape you haven't used enough ) I managed to stick it back together and am now making progress towards the nearest Chandler in the hope of getting a replacement switch.

 

On the plus side, the engine alternator hasn't made a 'peep' all day

Edited September 15, 2016 by Wanderer Vagabond

[WotEver]

As we sometimes used to say in the test department "let it develop"...