Where has all the unthusiam gone, is the heart of preservation now dead?

[Laurence Hogg]

I know very little about the GU wide boats, only what has been posted on here about "progress" where they all wooden? How many where there?

 

Regards kris

A very large number, a glance at the GJCC boat register will show you. Most were wooden, none like "Progress" which was unique. Some iron and steel boats were around, the steel ones containing a number built in Holland. Some steel wide boats are suspected to have survived now covered over in another arm in West London btw.

I'm all for preserving canal craft as built, but if the only economic and practical way of preserving a buttys future is convert into two motors then surely that is preferable to scrappage. In any case the conversion of boats, building cars whatever has going on for years. They call it 'phasing' in archaeological circles.

 

Converting an historical craft into something else should not be seen as sacrilege but moreover just another 'phase' in the objects life.

 

For a boat to be preserved 'as is' it must adequately satisfy three values:

 

Historical value.

Monetary value

Social value.

 

I'll leave it there for a moment for folk to mull over

I too would be happy to see the iron boats in Harefield raised, converted, cut or whatever as long as getting them out financed the recovery of one of the wide boats, which in the case of Hawtreys pit is the real prize to be had.

[Tam & Di]

Some steel wide boats are suspected to have survived now covered over in another arm in West London btw.

 

 

We were told in the late 50s by boatman George Beauchamp that the Fellows Morton experimental wide boat which was their equivalent of GUCCC's Progress (the name of which eludes me at the moment) was among these.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Tam & Di

[kris88]

A very large number, a glance at the GJCC boat register will show you. Most were wooden, none like "Progress" which was unique. Some iron and steel boats were around, the steel ones containing a number built in Holland. Some steel wide boats are suspected to have survived now covered over in another arm in West London btw.

I too would be happy to see the iron boats in Harefield raised, converted, cut or whatever as long as getting them out financed the recovery of one of the wide boats, which in the case of Hawtreys pit is the real prize to be had.

Thanks for that Laurence I'll see if I can find out more.

 

Regards kris

[alan_fincher]

 

We were told in the late 50s by boatman George Beauchamp that the Fellows Morton experimental wide boat which was their equivalent of GUCCC's Progress (the name of which eludes me at the moment) was among these.

Pioneer?

[jeannette smith harrison]

Thanks for that Laurence I'll see if I can find out more.

 

Regards kris

 

I know of a wide boat sank when they filled in the arm @ west Drayton

[pete harrison]

 

We were told in the late 50s by boatman George Beauchamp that the Fellows Morton experimental wide boat which was their equivalent of GUCCC's Progress (the name of which eludes me at the moment) was among these.

My understanding, and from an enthusiast observation at that time, is that F.M.& C. Ltd. wide motor PIONEER was sunk in the arm that services Yeading Tip - and was later buried there

[Tam & Di]

Pioneer?

That's the one!!! My brain cells are in urgent need of restoration too.

 

 

I know of a wide boat sank when they filled in the arm @ west Drayton

 

I seem to recall George saying that Pioneer was buried in the Yiewsley arm

[Wanderer Vagabond]

I get the feeling that this discussion is sort of following the same path as the infamous spat between Tom Rolt and Robert Aickman back when the canals were initially being restored. Rolt was pragmatic about what should be restored whereas Aickman wanted everything to be restored. The latter's view is fine if there is an infinite pot of money to call upon, but there isn't. Some boats have been scrapped and should remain so.

 

I'm happy to be condemned as a Philistine but as far as a lot of the old boats (and engines) go they are interesting but I have absolutely no desire to own or work on one. A Bolinder engine is fascinating to view in someone else's boat but would be a real PITA to have in my own boat. The world moves on and it seems odd that whilst the nation is outraged when VW fiddle their emissions results we have engines powering narrow boats that make the emissions from a VW seem like pure clear breathable air.

 

I'd be interested what the views of the original boatmen would be on the restoration of their old working boats just as a museum piece. They were intensely practical people and once the use of their boats had passed they moved on. I don't doubt there was criticism of boatmen who gave up their original horses and took up with the 'new fangled' engines but they were in the business to make money not as a museum so they didn't 'conserve' all of the old horse drawn boats they either converted them or scrapped them.

 

When the museum at Ellesmere Port have managed to successfully restore (and put to practical use) all of the boats that they have currently 'undergoing restoration' then perhaps they could look at some of these other boats, but since I don't think that is going to happen in my lifetime (or my grandchildren's lifetime!) then we need to discuss what needs to be restored rather than looking a a pile of derelict boats and hope to restore all of them.

[Laurence Hogg]

Pioneer?

Pioneer was the FMC wide boat which was sold to Harefield lime Co I believe. The third (almost unknown ) one was John Dickensons "Progress" which could accommodate news print rolls athwart the hold. I think this was derelict in a arm in West Drayton early 1970's. Can anyone confirm?

 

[Mike Adams]

I have followed closely the story of the wide boats on the Paddington arm as I have the last remaining tug 'White Heather' that used to tow a string of these craft along the arm.I often think it would be very nice to have a wide boat or two to tow around but it would be impossible now due to the number of moored boats. If anyone remembers lighters being towed up from Brentford they will know what I mean. I was briefly involved with saving a couple of wooden Wey barges in the early 1980's one of which Speedwell is now in the boat museum at Ellesmere Port and the Other is now at Guildford on the Wey - Perseverance. I think there have been no less than 3 or 4 restorations on the Perseverance with mind boggling amounts of money spent but really no one could find a use for them and it is only a matter of time before they rot away again. I am of the opinion that trying to save any of the old wooden boats would, unfortunately, be a futile exercise and probably any steel/iron ones were knackered when they were sunk anyway. Museums seem to be struggling to keep their collections in one piece so unless a find in the pit would make a usable craft for the private owner they are probably best left where they are.

[Admiral]

Laurence, Are you suggesting that anyone interested can just go and claim one of these boats? I seem to recall that was more or less what happened when boats sunk in the Cheshire flashes were retrieved a few years ago.

 

But somebody presumably (at least technically) owns these boats. Is that CRT (as successors to BW who sank them)? The current landowner?

 

I would love to rock up with a couple of mates, a JCB perhaps, a pump or two and a load of tarpaulins and see if we could get one of the iron boats afloat. But I'm not sure its as easy as that these days.

 

As for the wooden boats, being sunk may have preserved the lower parts of them, but its difficult enough to find people willing to take on the wooden narrow boats that do exist, and the example of those that have been donated to museums is hardly a happy story. For these I think the best you can hope for is an archaeological excavation and recording. And someone will need to fund that.

 

I have also followed this topic for a long time.

I was under the impression that Hillingdon council actually owned the land therefore what was in/on/under it! Has there actually been any discovery done at the site (divers etc.) to assess the state of the boats and if they would come up in one piece? Is there one boat that would come up easier than others? Raising one would make news for certain. I certainly see enough people on here would be willing to help with time and some with money maybe something could be made to happen with the help of local council's and CRT?

The CWDF trust?

[David Mack]

I too would be happy to see the iron boats in Harefield raised, converted, cut or whatever as long as getting them out financed the recovery of one of the wide boats, which in the case of Hawtreys pit is the real prize to be had.

 

"Financed the recovery" means that whoever rescues one (or more) of the iron boats has to pay for the recovery of a wide boat. If you impose that condition I think you have made the recovery of an iron butty, which might just about be an economic proposition in its own right, into an unaffordable millstone.

[ChimneyChain]

Pioneer was the FMC wide boat which was sold to Harefield lime Co I believe. The third (almost unknown ) one was John Dickensons "Progress" which could accommodate news print rolls athwart the hold. I think this was derelict in a arm in West Drayton early 1970's. Can anyone confirm?

Laurence Is that the same arm as what this photo was taken from.

 

Darren

Edited April 23, 2016 by ChimneyChain

[Ray T]

Are the wide boats in Harefield similar to this?

 

 

Edited April 23, 2016 by Ray T

[Laurence Hogg]

Are the wide boats in Harefield similar to this?

 

Powerful with wideboats 1905.jpg Wide Boat Golden Spray.jpg

Yes they are, although some were cabinless when dumped having been reduced to just rubbish carrying "lighters".

Laurence Is that the same arm as what this photo was taken from.

 

Darren

Certainly looks similar, I recognise the type of boat, they were not common. The boat in my picture has a rounded stem so the craft aren't identical.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Laurence Hogg

[Jrtm]

Laurence, Are you suggesting that anyone interested can just go and claim one of these boats? I seem to recall that was more or less what happened when boats sunk in the Cheshire flashes were retrieved a few years ago.

 

But somebody presumably (at least technically) owns these boats. Is that CRT (as successors to BW who sank them)? The current landowner?

 

I would love to rock up with a couple of mates, a JCB perhaps, a pump or two and a load of tarpaulins and see if we could get one of the iron boats afloat. But I'm not sure its as easy as that these days.

 

As for the wooden boats, being sunk may have preserved the lower parts of them, but its difficult enough to find people willing to take on the wooden narrow boats that do exist, and the example of those that have been donated to museums is hardly a happy story. For these I think the best you can hope for is an archaeological excavation and recording. And someone will need to fund that.

Something like this is very exciting to me,

 

The problem would be cost of any rebuildung needed all the wooden boats would need full rebuilds (not cheap) then you have the iron boats this is fine but most are butties and yes people want them but most would be converted into a motor and sold for profit not to be kept. I would live to get hold of one but its the work after that would cost the earth to start with and its a that i think that would hold most people back.

 

Yes you could start a trust to get some money to get them out but most public dont see a boat as a national treasure and theres not exactly tv program after program about them or a particular famous boat ect (why i think railways get far more money the public car react and relate to them better)

[Ray T]

Reading through this thread again it has just come to mind that Tim Carter on William (Royalty class motor) is running a camping boat. Here is someone doing his bit, so perhaps all is not lost?

 

http://www.inlandnavigators.co.uk/narrowboat-william.html

Edited April 24, 2016 by Ray T

[Athy]

That's good to see. I thought that camping boats were a thing of the past - one often reads people's memories of having a trip in them, but those memories generally date back to the 1970s.

 

William must be the only boat for public hire which is powered by a Bolinder (thankfully she comes with a skipper).

 

There is a certain irony in one paragraph of the brochure: while the writer stresses that this is a "back to basics holiday - there is no television", he goes on to add that there is a power point from which mobile telephones can be recharged!

[Jrtm]

My other concerns would be licance costs once its been raised and worked on its then normally if you have a butty a second boat to licance and its soon turns into 2+k a year for the pair then there is the mooring costs if you could find a nice place at 300 a boat far more would be saved but some where like avecote is near 3k a year 2 boats thats suddenly 8k for licance and mooring! I know you can do it cheaper but on average it would be 2-3k per boat.

[Athy]

My other concerns would be licance costs once its been raised and worked on its then normally if you have a butty a second boat to licance and its soon turns into 2+k a year for the pair then there is the mooring costs if you could find a nice place at 300 a boat far more would be saved but some where like avecote is near 3k a year 2 boats thats suddenly 8k for licance and mooring! I know you can do it cheaper but on average it would be 2-3k per boat.

No one is saying that vintage boat restoration and preservation is a poor man's game - all the more reason why such work should be carried out by a preservation society, so that the costs might be shared amongst its members.,

[X Alan W]

I guess the whole " canal thinking" has done a more or less about turn when i started boating in the late 50's & through the 60's/70's the "aim" of the canal "nut" was to keep open as much of the system as possible & if possible cruise as much as was available, ex commercial boats were "two a penny" & one of the quickest ways of getting afloat or being able to boat was to buy an ex working boat to convert or cut & convert ( the builders of pleasure boats you could count on the fingers of one hand ) you knew the boat would more or less fit the narrow system ( unlike a lot of the ships lifeboat conversions) & if not to neglected fit for purpose Nowadays the system is more or less safe( in abandonment stakes even if a bit iffy in places )back in the day non working were not as today encouraged, back then it was cruise as much as possible not as today were some peoples aim seems to be able to stay in one spot for as long as possible if not permanently,the cost of Ex working boats has reached telephone directory numbers in cost + the available leisure boats for sale for less money with all the bells & whistles as a opposed to existing in an 8x8ft cabin with little or no facilities times have changed people expect more in regard to home comforts so while back in the day the majority of boaters were canal enthusiasts it is now a minority.

[jeannette smith harrison]

Taken @ Southall

[ChimneyChain]

Has anyone seen the photos on the virtual waterway archive of the boats at Harefield ?? I would say without a doubt the wooden boats are lost forever. I've dug around the stern of an iron boat though and that was quite solid. I'll be walking the dog up there later today. Even with the boats that are under foot, what with fully grown trees / roots, a mountain of rubble it would be a major operation to even get a foot hold. But saying that if anyone wanted a pair of strong arms and a keen heart to shift things I would be more than happy to give it a go..

 

On another note nearly all of the Sabeys wide boats where holed and buried when they filled in Sabeys arm.

 

Darren

[jeannette smith harrison]

Passing through Osterley park in 1930

[ChimneyChain]

With my Nan's aunt Harriet in her best hat on the first boat.

 

Darren