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Where has all the unthusiam gone, is the heart of preservation now dead?


Laurence Hogg

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The title is deliberate, it would be wrong in this instance to refer to enthusiasm.

A while ago a topic was raised on here and in other magazines which astounded many narrow boat enthusiasts. It was the re discovery that a tranche of former working boats which were assumed "lost forever" were in fact substantially intact in a gravel pit at Harefield.Hawtreys pit" to be precise which is alongside and behind todays Harefield Marina.

 

Here is the link to the CWDF article which ran for a long time: https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D28897&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwiptIPW86HMAhVkAsAKHUnyDWgQFggGMAE&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHucDlRkoZ1v_0zS1X8W_oTCJ_f5w

 

The post ran for over 3 years attaining over 220 posts, this wasn't suprising given what was on the site.

 

Apart from 11 intact "Josher" horse boat / butty hulls there was also the now extinct London area "wide boats" several of which are intact.

 

It is /was the equivalent of finding a concealed "Barry Scrapyard", not for locomotives as Barry was but for our boat heritage.

 

Despite massive research and investigation by Mark Pullinger in the main, assisted by other enthusiasts like myself who could help access and interpret what was there, scant interest came from the "right quarters" ie BW / CRT and the surrounding councils.

 

However proven beyond doubt Hawtreys pit at Harefield contains a massive amount of recoverable, reusable, restorable hulls, there are 11 iron "Joshers" for starters.

 

So what happened? Not a lot... had this been 20 years previous frenzied activity would likely to have occurred and whilst maybe being a little "illegal" the project to recover and record I am sure would have commenced.

 

Now it seems no one is interested, I for one find that beyond comprehension, who are these so called "enthusuasts" today? Do they ever want to go and dig a hull out of the mud or are they over rich to the point that they get someone else to do it? But, is any of that near the truth?

Is anyone really interested anymore?

 

We lost a waterways stalwart this week, Max Sinclair, people like him would not have ignored this site or the oppurtunities it presents, so begs the question, Have all the true enthusiasts died away and is the interest gone? Does the future of boat preservation now lie around tattling up that which is floating and selling it time and time again within a small group of working boat owners? Or is there still the odd person who would take on a challenge well "out of the box"

Edited by Laurence Hogg
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Rools and regulashuns that werent around all those years ago are now well enforced, any works of the like you describe would require permits and permissions and god knows what to get anything done. Not forgetting those permits and sustificats get more expensive every day seemingly.

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Perhaps we're all sitting around being astounded that someone else isn't doing something.

 

Or the limited appeal of boats of dubious soundness that would need recovery, transport, then a new back end / motor / possibly over plating etc to be of any practical use. .... and then be decried for having had their true heritage value destroyed.

Edited by twbm
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Rools and regulashuns that werent around all those years ago are now well enforced, any works of the like you describe would require permits and permissions and god knows what to get anything done. Not forgetting those permits and sustificats get more expensive every day seemingly.

Rules and regulations are not the problem here, all are easy to obtain, interested parties are the problem.

I suspect nobody can afford it.

Its not that expensive to hire a crane and a couple of JCB's. Again its the interest that isn't forthcoming.

Perhaps we're all sitting around being astounded that someone else isn't doing something.

 

Or the limited appeal of boats of dubious soundness that would need recovery, transport, then a new back end / motor / possibly over plating etc to be of any practical use. .... and then be decried for having had their true heritage value destroyed.

And what about the wide boats? Of which currently none are in existence afloat?
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Laurence, my thoughts only, looking at it from the outside. Society since the 60 – 70’s has altered dramatically.

 

As the working boat era fades into the past there are less people who may have an interest in that side of the canals. As you so rightly said re Max.

 

Also we are in a far more litigious society, where many quite happily trespassed and broke the law to save and restore canals and boats in the past, I’m not sure many would risk that now. I have difficulty seeing those who own Harefield looking kindly to a bunch of well meaning folks "rocking up" with a couple of JCB's and saying "We're just rescuing some of those boats."

 

The ingredients to preserve our past are knowledge, enthusiasm and sorry to say money. Whilst in my heart I would love to save just one of these boats my head says differently, I am not sure I would want to spend that amount of money when we are still in uncertain financial times......

 

I suppose "crowd funding" could be attempted. I am aware that some boats are "society" owned.

 

Having said that, there has been no shortage of money to recreate an ex LNER A1 and now a P2. But somehow I feel railways are more relevant to most people.

 

Just a thought to leave you with:

 

“There are some things that money can’t buy, like loyalty, feelings and a sense of history, and some things that only money can preserve, like those same loyalties, feelings and a sense of history.”

Edited by Ray T
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As the working boat era fades into the past there are less people who may have an interest in that side of the canals.

[quote

 

 

 

TWBM sounds a sane note of caution, but I am sure that people would reach into their pockets to support such a preservation attempt.

 

But, not many people are good natural leaders. It needs someone to start a preservation society and establish a course of action, then others will support it. I'd join, I'd pay a subscription, but I wouldn't wish to be in charge. Who else on here feels similarly?

 

 

 

 

 

Judging by the crowds who gather at Braunston and at Alvecote, inter alia, to watch the preserved working boats, you may be unduly pessimistic.

 

I have no idea how part of my text got inside the box and the other half outside it!

Edited by Athy
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Judging by the crowds who gather at Braunston and at Alvecote, inter alia, to watch the preserved working boats, you may be unduly pessimistic.

 

I have no idea how part of my text got inside the box and the other half outside it!

 

But how many of those would dig deep into their pockets?

 

Rhetorical question but how is it the A1 & P2 people can raise such vast sums?

 

"The Founders Club: launched in September 2013 with a target of recruiting 100 members each donating £1,000 to raise the funds for the acquisition and cutting of the frames. The Founders Club closed to new members in July 2014 having attracted over 360 supporters and raising £460,000. What a spectacular start to the project!"

 

http://www.p2steam.com/how-you-can-help/supporting-no-2007

Edited by Ray T
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I can assure you there is still an active enthusiasm with the next generation. The problem however is the cost of boats increasing, as they become more sought after. We all do our bit in our own way with what we have.

This is what I'd say, I agree with you,there are thousands of young boaters in and around that area and I can think of plenty who are and have the skills and might be interested if asked. A few with access to boatyards also.

I don't recall seeing this posted on or discussed on any of their Facebook groups. You probably won't find them at Braunston, more likely trying to use their skills to fix up something wooden out somewhere in Kent.

If you're interested in engaging people is it possible to organise visit to where these boats are?

As for the money thing, well, younger generation tends to crowdfund everything. The way things are done has changed. None of us have any money but we all chipped in to get The Village butty off the ground. Anyone curious will be able to see what was done at the Cavalcade.

Edited by Lady Muck
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Altered my comment as I realise you had amended yours. cool.png

 

Cross posting!

My dear chap, I'm not the slightest bit cross!

Sometimes these quote boxes have a mind of their own, either that I sometimes I don't.

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I for one have walked past these "lost boats" for years and slowly seen the wide boat on the bank deteriorate to a point where the sides are almost flat on the ground, it is a shame that nothing is being done but as the boats are either under 5ft or more of rubble of under a few feet of mud under water I find it hard as to where you would start. It needs the people with good Communication skills to allow the work to commence and then the muscle to carry out the task in hand to which I would say people would flock to.

So let's say if the heads got together and authorised the work to be carried out i for one would be there, Marks got my number.

 

Darren

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I for one have walked past these "lost boats" for years and slowly seen the wide boat on the bank deteriorate to a point where the sides are almost flat on the ground, it is a shame that nothing is being done but as the boats are either under 5ft or more of rubble of under a few feet of mud under water I find it hard as to where you would start. It needs the people with good Communication skills to allow the work to commence and then the muscle to carry out the task in hand to which I would say people would flock to.

So let's say if the heads got together and authorised the work to be carried out i for one would be there, Marks got my number.

 

Darren

You would start with "Yardley" which is mostly under just a few inches of mud and water, next to it is a wooden Josher completely submerged, removal of Yardley would allow inspection of the wooden hull which may be in good condition. Both boats would reveal lost internal fittings for sure. The next target would have to be the outer of the wide boats which have a shallow covering of spoil. And you go from there.

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Well, you've got many fewer enthusiasts for canals than railways, I'd say. With the exception of a couple of people who helped lock keepers, hitched rides with friendly boaters, and learnt the trade, how many 1960s schoolboys collected the numbers of passing narrowboats?

 

It's those 1960s schoolboys who are now retiring, or at the top of their careers with the money. They see an advert, think "damned good idea!" and write a cheque. Narrowboats don't have that. They never really had a schoolboy following, back in the day or now.

 

Thinking about people around my age (28) who I know: two volunteer or have volunteered to drive and fire on railways (Ravenglass and Eskdale and the Ffestiniog) and both have assisted on PW gangs. Quite a few others are interested, but haven't volunteered. But I know more people around my age involved in the canals- probably because that's where my interest developed. Wooden boat joint-owners, butty boaters, boatyard owners, steam boaters, forum owners....

 

I for one am interested in the boats in Harefield- but have, at the moment, neither the time nor the money to do anything about it.

 

But, amongst the people my age I know, there are the skills (welding, hot riveting, rebuilding) so you never know, in 5 or 10 years time we might yet pull something off.

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I'm interested. I read the original thread cover to cover several times. I'm also enthusiastic. But I have no money.

I am in the same camp. I could not begin as an individual afford to restore one of these boats.

 

It may be a possibility to get a group of people to form a society to collectively do something to help a boat or two.

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I am in the same camp. I could not begin as an individual afford to restore one of these boats.

 

It may be a possibility to get a group of people to form a society to collectively do something to help a boat or two.

Perhaps the CWDF restoration society needs to be formed.

Add in a bit of crowd funding and you never know.

Edited by Rob-M
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I am in the same camp. I could not begin as an individual afford to restore one of these boats.

 

It may be a possibility to get a group of people to form a society to collectively do something to help a boat or two.

I too am the same at the moment.

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Laurence, Are you suggesting that anyone interested can just go and claim one of these boats? I seem to recall that was more or less what happened when boats sunk in the Cheshire flashes were retrieved a few years ago.

 

But somebody presumably (at least technically) owns these boats. Is that CRT (as successors to BW who sank them)? The current landowner?

 

I would love to rock up with a couple of mates, a JCB perhaps, a pump or two and a load of tarpaulins and see if we could get one of the iron boats afloat. But I'm not sure its as easy as that these days.

 

As for the wooden boats, being sunk may have preserved the lower parts of them, but its difficult enough to find people willing to take on the wooden narrow boats that do exist, and the example of those that have been donated to museums is hardly a happy story. For these I think the best you can hope for is an archaeological excavation and recording. And someone will need to fund that.

  • Greenie 1
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The phrase Time & Money keeps appearing on this thread which is unfortunately a common and understandable problem (it's one I have myself) that said if nothing happens and we look back at this in 20 years time how much will we have wished we made a bit of time. Money for an individual is always a constraint however for a group with some work it can often be found. I do wonder if there would be any future in at least seeing if we can establish ownership and then approach the owner as well as the land owner then going and seeing what we can find and establish if anything looks worth saving.

 

I for one would be happy to at least be part of an initial group.

  • Greenie 1
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