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Daventry Canal Arm...... Its a Big No?


matty40s

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In my line of work I've seen some very creative solutions drawn up, most of them so cumbersome, contrived and heath-robinson-esque that they will never see the light of day!

 

It would be interesting to check 19th century patents to see how many of these solutions are new

 

Richard

Edited by RLWP
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Thanks that is very interesting. I get what you are saying and how that have been a game changer for Falkirk.

 

I was thinking as someone who has brought up 2 kids in the midlands, that something to do as a day out is popular. The midlands being a bit far to the coast for a day trip for many, something closer is good, for example we made very good use of our NT membership when the kids were young and even places like Kingsbury water park, and not forgetting Hatton locks which is a popular afternoon out round here. Of course all on a nice summer day, a wet Wednesday in Febuary less so, but presumably that would be the case in Falkirk as well.

 

A boat lift with a trip boat and a cafe/pub overlooking it would work well, probably similar to the way Anderton works for the Manchester area. A lack of boats could be an issue though given it is on a dead end.

Edited by john6767
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Which is why now not doing the inclined plane at Foxton was such a poor decision. Foxton is already one of those tourist destinations you mention, the inclined plane would have taken it to another level entirely.

Totally agree, that is a missed opportunity, but one that plays into Daventy's hands in this case.

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It would be interesting to check 19th century patents to see how many of these solutions are new

 

Richard

Perhaps the best place to look would be those proposed for the Oder-Elbe-Danube canal system, which had a competition circa 1890. A rotating lift, something similar to that built at Falkirk, was proposed, but on a lift designed for 1000 ton boats, it was thought that differential expansion caused by sunlight only falling on one end would cause problems. The Russians also had several unusual ideas for boat lifts around this time, when they were planning to expand their waterway system.

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You're on the right lines actually, and to be honest us "professionals" don't know what will work, it's just we've researched what has worked! Depending on your criteria you could classify the Falkirk Wheel as a monumental failure. There are very few boat movements through it apart from the trip boat, and on my only visit some American tourists did question the guide as to whether it was basically a large white elephant, but like a white elephant it brings crowds to the circus. The Falkirk Wheel need's it's trip boat though, otherwise much of the appeal would be lost, because the visitors would never see it work.

 

Very few tourists are interested in canals, they want to be entertained. "Give us something to do"; coach companies want something where they can drop tourists off and they have toilets and "something to do" (The toilets are paramount - no loos, no coaches). The package holiday business want hotels and "something to do". One impact of the Falkirk Wheel was that hotels in Falkirk suddenly had a much bigger market, and as it's also handy for Edinburgh and Glasgow (frequent direct trains)... TBH, I think those doing the forecasts assumed people might visit the wheel whilst staying in Edinburgh or Glasgow, whereas holiday companies suddenly worked out the Falkirk was handy for Edinburgh and Glasgow and the hotel market suddenly got a critical mass of it's own.

 

You're spot on that "something to do" near Daventry has a big catchment population, and without this the lift probably would be less effective. Attractions that change the market are rare: the Eden project was intended to be one and succeeded, the Millennium Dome tried and failed (although it still drew big crowds), the Falkirk Wheel exceeded expectations in this regard. I think the Daventry A-frame may do as well as the Falkirk Wheel was expected to do, it's unlikely to match what the Falkirk Wheel actually achieved

Interesting discussion points. I think that your 'something to do' for visitors would certainly benefit more from the A-frame boat lift than from either the diagonal lock or a series of 6 locks. The diagonal lock, whilst unusual (are there any working examples?) isn't much to watch since most of the 'action' takes place underground. As a boater I'm not sure quite how keen I'd be to go down what is effectively a 'gentle' boat flumeunsure.png . Being the eternal pessimist, how do you get out if the system fails? Do you have to try to climb back up the sloping wet tube? or just shout for help?

 

As far as the 6 locks plan goes, I wouldn't think that would be much of a 'draw' at all. The nearest comparison I can think of would be the Titford Canal on the BCN. How many people (except during the BCN Challenge) bother to go up the Oldbury flight to enjoy the benefits of the Titford Pools? I would think it would mainly be the 'tick in the box' travellers, and they'd only do it the once.

 

Which is why now not doing the inclined plane at Foxton was such a poor decision. Foxton is already one of those tourist destinations you mention, the inclined plane would have taken it to another level entirely.

Whilst I haven't really followed the reasons for not restoring the Foxton inclined plane, why do you think it would have taken it 'up to another level'? (assuming it wasn't a pun?unsure.png ). Whereas it is quite easy to accomodate a large number of people who wish to watch boats going up and down the lock flight, there would need to be a lot of work done to the environs of the inclined plane to accomodate a similar number of people wanting to watch. Given the gradient it wouldn't be particularly wheelchair friendly (neither children nor disabled) so all that people would be able to do would be to stand at the top or bottom to watch. I think as a viewer there is more interest in a number of locks with several boats travelling up and down them than just watching two boats go up and two boats go down on the inclined plane.

 

As a boater, if the inclined plane was available, I would tend to use that which would probably lead to the lock flight falling into relative disuse with only a few die-hards wanting to take 45minutes to an hour to do something that would probably take 10 minutes on the inclined plane. Whilst I'd be happy to use the inclined plane if it were there, I don't think it's a high priority and I don't think it would significantly increase visitor numbers (after the initial novelty value had worn off)

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Interesting discussion points. I think that your 'something to do' for visitors would certainly benefit more from the A-frame boat lift than from either the diagonal lock or a series of 6 locks. The diagonal lock, whilst unusual (are there any working examples?) isn't much to watch since most of the 'action' takes place underground. As a boater I'm not sure quite how keen I'd be to go down what is effectively a 'gentle' boat flumeunsure.png . Being the eternal pessimist, how do you get out if the system fails? Do you have to try to climb back up the sloping wet tube? or just shout for help?

 

As far as the 6 locks plan goes, I wouldn't think that would be much of a 'draw' at all. The nearest comparison I can think of would be the Titford Canal on the BCN. How many people (except during the BCN Challenge) bother to go up the Oldbury flight to enjoy the benefits of the Titford Pools? I would think it would mainly be the 'tick in the box' travellers, and they'd only do it the once.

 

Whilst I haven't really followed the reasons for not restoring the Foxton inclined plane, why do you think it would have taken it 'up to another level'? (assuming it wasn't a pun?unsure.png ). Whereas it is quite easy to accomodate a large number of people who wish to watch boats going up and down the lock flight, there would need to be a lot of work done to the environs of the inclined plane to accomodate a similar number of people wanting to watch. Given the gradient it wouldn't be particularly wheelchair friendly (neither children nor disabled) so all that people would be able to do would be to stand at the top or bottom to watch. I think as a viewer there is more interest in a number of locks with several boats travelling up and down them than just watching two boats go up and two boats go down on the inclined plane.

 

As a boater, if the inclined plane was available, I would tend to use that which would probably lead to the lock flight falling into relative disuse with only a few die-hards wanting to take 45minutes to an hour to do something that would probably take 10 minutes on the inclined plane. Whilst I'd be happy to use the inclined plane if it were there, I don't think it's a high priority and I don't think it would significantly increase visitor numbers (after the initial novelty value had worn off)

But what are the comparative throughputs, assuming that a boat is always at the start ready to load? With current traffic levels, which is the more likely to lead to the ,longer delay?

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So do you think that twice as many people will come because there is a staircase and an inclined plane?

 

My turn

 

Yes, I think that. The staircase is a nice passive day out. The incline has the opportunity to run trip boats and is far more of a spectacle

 

Richard

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So do you think that twice as many people will come because there is a staircase and an inclined plane?

Err, yes and more than that.

I believe the final decision on dropping the plan to rebuild the plane was the projected maintenance costs and having to replace the cables an awful lot to meet modern health and safety standards.

I could be wrong on this though.

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Err, yes and more than that.

I believe the final decision on dropping the plan to rebuild the plane was the projected maintenance costs and having to replace the cables an awful lot to meet modern health and safety standards.

I could be wrong on this though.

 

I think you are correct. Also the most recent recession kicked any plans into touch.

 

The latest I heard was that the FIPT were working on a virtual representation.

 

http://www.fipt.org.uk/

 

From here: http://www.canalboat.co.uk/canal-boats/canal_history_heritage_the_foxton_inclined_plane_1_4341394

 

Despite this, in January 2014 the Trust was forced to abandon their campaign, with President of the Trust David Stephenson saying at the time: “We have estimated the rebuilding cost would be in excess of £11 million and we believe it unlikely that the Heritage Lottery Fund would give financial support to the lift replication project”. However, all was not lost – technology was infinitely more advanced since the bridge was built – and it appeared that the digital age offered a unique solution.

 

In 2015, thanks to support of the Trust partners and a generous grant from the Arts Council – the museum was transformed. The BoilerHouse as it is now called, retains its museum accreditation and allows guests to explore the history of the locks and the lift in exciting new and innovative ways. The new ‘digital boat lift’ brings the lift to life in virtual reality using an app on your smart-phone or tablet. It’s true that virtual reality is not the same as the real thing, however, this is an excellent example of how new technologies can be used to support and preserve the heritage of our waterways that are so close to being lost forever.

 

In 2015, thanks to support of the Trust partners and a generous grant from the Arts Council – the museum was transformed. The BoilerHouse as it is now called, retains its museum accreditation and allows guests to explore the history of the locks and the lift in exciting new and innovative ways. The new ‘digital boat lift’ brings the lift to life in virtual reality using an app on your smart-phone or tablet. It’s true that virtual reality is not the same as the real thing, however, this is an excellent example of how new technologies can be used to support and preserve the heritage of our waterways that are so close to being lost forever.

Edited by Ray T
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Will it greatly increase trade?

Of course. Think what happens when boaters moor somewhere. They go in search of food, be it in a café or from a shop. They go in search of drinks, be they in a pub or from a shop. They stock up with household items such as cleaning products, fuel for the stove, toiletries. They post items at the Post Office, where they buy stamps to affix to these items. They seek entertainment, by buying books and magazines to read or by visiting a cinema. They require batteries and other bits for their electronic paraphernalia.

All these activities involve spending money, ergo their presence increases trade.

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Of course. Think what happens when boaters moor somewhere. They go in search of food, be it in a café or from a shop. They go in search of drinks, be they in a pub or from a shop. They stock up with household items such as cleaning products, fuel for the stove, toiletries. They post items at the Post Office, where they buy stamps to affix to these items. They seek entertainment, by buying books and magazines to read or by visiting a cinema. They require batteries and other bits for their electronic paraphernalia.

All these activities involve spending money, ergo their presence increases trade.

.....this is daventry......you missed out going to a charity shop.....

...and a cinema is one of those things the people of Daventry would prefer before a muddy ditch.

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.....this is daventry......you missed out going to a charity shop.....

 

Indeed, when I hit any new town I always raid the charity shops. But I omitted them because they don't put money into the local economy, though of course in some cases their takings may benefit needy local people/buildings/donkeys etc.

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.....this is daventry......you missed out going to a charity shop.....

...and a cinema is one of those things the people of Daventry would prefer before a muddy ditch.

Daventry has had 3 cinemas...

 

Rex 1920s - 1950s

Regal 1914 - 1987 (demolished in 87)

Regal 1987 - 1993 / 1995 - 1999

 

Much as the people of Daventry would like a multi screen cinema I don't think the town has the number of people (with enough disposable income) to make a cinema successful.

It's one of those plans that appears every 3 or 4 years and then quietly fizzles out

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Seems the boat lift has been dropped for now.

 

http://www.daventryexpress.co.uk/news/three-week-consultation-kicks-off-for-revised-daventry-canal-arm-plans-1-7591773

 

And the marina, apparently. So just an arm up to a roundabout on the edge of town. (edit to add this line)

That link appears to be 4 months old - did you mean to post another?

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That link appears to be 4 months old - did you mean to post another?

 

Ah. No, it's the same map that they used in the article a few days ago:

 

http://www.daventryexpress.co.uk/news/plans-for-daventry-canal-arm-recommended-for-approval-1-7758211

 

I was looking for the boat lift but could only see locks. I googled after I'd posted to find out more and found the article stating that the boat lift was not included.

 

Edit: That doesn't make sense. Obviously I must have googled first. But it was the later article that raised my curiosity!

Edited by stegra
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My turn

 

Yes, I think that. The staircase is a nice passive day out. The incline has the opportunity to run trip boats and is far more of a spectacle

 

Richard

 

 

Err, yes and more than that.

I believe the final decision on dropping the plan to rebuild the plane was the projected maintenance costs and having to replace the cables an awful lot to meet modern health and safety standards.

I could be wrong on this though.

To be honest I think that we, as boaters, have a tendency to overrate the importance of features on the canal system in the grand scheme of things. We all know about Foxton Locks, Anderton Boat Lift, Pontcysyllte Aqueduct,Bingley Five rise, etc.etc but in the wider general public, how widely are they known?

 

This was illustrated to me whilst moored at the top of Foxton Locks when at 12.30am a car crashed off the road and overturned into a field. I phoned the emergency services and when giving the location to the call taker I said to her,"Do you know where Foxton locks are?" to which her reply was "No", she hadn't a clue where I was talking about. I then had the task of trying to give the location without reference to Foxton Locks, as one not local to the area it was an interesting exercise. The solution was to then ask her if she knew where Gartree prison was, she did so we worked it out from there.

 

Because the wider public just don't notice the canals much I don't think there is much chance of getting twice as many visitors just because we have a working inclined plane.

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I don't think your average visitor has any great interest in canals as such, they just want an interesting day out. But watching boats go through a lift is interesting for most people, it is not something you see every day, and even better if there is a trip boat that you can go on. Locks do also provide interest as we know, Foxton, Hatton etc are very busy on a summer weekend at least, but a boat lift would be a much bigger draw, and in this case if Daventry is wanting to attract tourism they in my opinion would be best in investing in that rather than locks. On course if they came up with something else completely to a canal arm to attract tourism them that would be equally valid, the canal arm is just a means to a end to the council.

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If Daventry really want to be ambitious, how about extending this arm to build a canal right through, perhaps to somewhere on the Oxford summit? I think there's not much height difference, with Daventry being maybe a bit higher, so if a good route and a water supply can be found (some water is needed anyway for the arm they plan), the obstacle would be the cost of a few extra locks and some miles of following a contour?

 

If the geography allows it, and the money can be found, I think a through canal there would get a lot of traffic. Hire boats would love it and it'd be a short cut across from the GU to the Oxford. It might also give CRT useful extra options for managing water and providing an alternative route around closures.

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If the geography allows it, and the money can be found, I think a through canal there would get a lot of traffic. Hire boats would love it and it'd be a short cut across from the GU to the Oxford. It might also give CRT useful extra options for managing water and providing an alternative route around closures.

I don't think the geography allows it as a sensible option.

 

all it could really cut out would be braunston (and joining the oxford somewhere around napton) and even then I suspect that it would take a lot more locks to do it and wouldn't be substantially shorter.

 

looking at the contours on the map the canal would at best need to start at around 350' ASL climb to around 400' ASL before dropping back down to 325' ASL for the level of the oxford between braunston and napton (completely ignoring the fact that a good amount of the terrain on the napton side of daventry is around 500' ASL)

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