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Daventry Canal Arm...... Its a Big No?


matty40s

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Daventry is positively nice compared to some places I've been/worked. blink.png

Worksop seemed a dire hole, I would go that way when I was traveling to Wakefield for work. Worksop is one of those few places that doesn't seem to have a good bit to help balance it out.

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  • 8 months later...

They've got the Flore bypass going in and another 7000 houses planned when it's finished.

I do think they need to get their priorities right and sort the town centre first, not last.

Whilst I'm inclined to agree with your earlier argument regarding the opinions of locals should be the driving force, I'm not sure that I'm with you on 'sorting the town centre first'. Town centres throughout the country are dying, Daventry is nothing special on that front. If you have to wait for the town centre to 'get sorted' before embarking on any project then it will signal the end of projects everywhere. Wherever you go there is a proliferation of out of town retail parks with acres of free parking, how are town centres supposed to compete with that? (I'm not saying it is a good thing, merely reporting the facts). For a lot of businesses they have the added annoyance of people coming to their shops to view the items that they want in the flesh, but then going home and buying them cheaper online. I'm not sure where we are ultimately going on the retail front but town centres are becoming an endangered species.

 

If the decision is made to build the Daventry Arm, as a boater I would suggest that the A-Frame boat lift would be the way to go. At the moment when I want to go into to Daventry I'll moor up either at Braunston or at the Welton Lane end of the tunnel and bike in. I'm not sure that I could be *rsed to drag the boat up and down 6 locks just to be able to moor in Daventry, a boat lift however, that would be worth a gorolleyes.gif .

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Why the list and not just a flight of normal locks?

 

 

Daniel

 

The options considered were a normal flight of locks, a staircase, one very deep lock (about 50 feet drop) or a lift, the lift is felt to offer more in terms of making people want to use the canal and visit it, although the staircase was a close second. The proximity of Watford four rise was against the staircase.

 

a flight of four or five locks up to a short summit was felt unlikely to attract visitors

 

Several lift options were considered, inclined planes had the problem the Foxton might be restored. The A frame lift was simple and unusual (unlike, say, the helter skelter proposed on the BMK, which is anything but simple)

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The options considered were a normal flight of locks, a staircase, one very deep lock (about 50 feet drop) or a lift, the lift is felt to offer more in terms of making people want to use the canal and visit it, although the staircase was a close second. The proximity of Watford four rise was against the staircase.

 

a flight of four or five locks up to a short summit was felt unlikely to attract visitors

 

Interesting options, particularly the 50 foot lockunsure.png ,what nugget thought that one up? Whilst falling into an empty 8 foot lock would probably result in broken bones I would think that falling into an empty 50 foot deep lock would make death an almost certainty.

 

As I said on a previous post I'm not sure that I could be *rsed to drag the boat up and down 6 locks just to go a mile into Daventry, particularly since you can walk it from the Welford Lane end of Braunston Tunnel so I think I'd tend to agree with their assessment that a flight would be unlikely to attract visitors. A boat lift on the other hand probably would if you compare it to,say the Falkirk Wheel which isn't even connected to the rest of the canal system but seems to attract half a million visitors a year. Even if Daventry were to only attract half that number (no reason why it shouldn't attract more) it could make an impact on the local economy, even if they only spend £1 on parkingrolleyes.gif

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I dont get the boat lift, yes the one in scotland is nice but they have managed to turn it into an attraction i really dont see whats wrong with locks. Surly a lift is more expensive to build and maintain?

 

Im not saying i dont like lifts it just seams to be the new we need to go up a hill i know a lift.

 

But at the same time do we really need a new bit for that sort of distance when the current system is in such a poor state.

Edited by billybobbooth
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How refreshing to read of such boundless optimism. How about "the canal will bring visitors to the town, resulting in greatly increased trade for local businesses"?

 

Will it greatly increase trade.

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Will it greatly increase trade.

probably won't greatly increase trade..... but it's not going to reduce trade.

 

 

I dont get the boat lift, yes the one in scotland is nice but they have managed to turn it into an attraction i really dont see whats wrong with locks. Surly a lift is more expensive to build and maintain?

 

Im not saying i dont like lifts it just seams to be the new we need to go up a hill i know a lift.

 

But at the same time do we really need a new bit for that sort of distance when the current system is in such a poor state.

overall there is probably a lot less to go wrong with a lift than 8 locks, and knowing Daventry of old I would expect drained pounds to be a regular occurrence with locks

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A friend of mine who lived in the area in the 90s told me that Daventry was the largest town in England without a railway station (there was one but it closed).

Such an assertion is of course bound to depend on definitions, for example see this discussion from a few years ago:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=69227

 

Perhaps Daventry needs a railway first, or are they starting with a canal out of respect for transport history? Much as I like canals and only have a sketchy knowledge of the area, I'd have thought that some new passenger rail connection to DIRFT and/or nearby towns would make more sense economically.

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A friend of mine who lived in the area in the 90s told me that Daventry was the largest town in England without a railway station (there was one but it closed).

Such an assertion is of course bound to depend on definitions, for example see this discussion from a few years ago:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=69227

 

Perhaps Daventry needs a railway first, or are they starting with a canal out of respect for transport history? Much as I like canals and only have a sketchy knowledge of the area, I'd have thought that some new passenger rail connection to DIRFT and/or nearby towns would make more sense economically.

I would have thought the proximity to Rugby would make a rail connection not viable. Good bus links to Rugby would make sense, but those possibly are already in place?

 

I would have thought the thinking is that the arm with a boat lift and Braunston round the corner would make the area a bit of a destination for canal related tourism. Looking for something to make the town different is probably a good thing for a town council to be doing.

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I have remembered that we also looked at the diagonal lock - this didn't cut the mustard: as the engineer examining it pointed out it fell between two stools- to near vertical and it wasn't diagonal, too near horizontal and it wasn't a lock, and in between the diameter was huge to accommodate the length of the boats rising within the tunnel

 

the single lock would have been a shaft lock, and overall we felt it would be off-putting rather than attractive.

 

The mechanics of a canal for regeneration are complex and not entirely predictable, at least not in a scientific way. Many places have a canal as their main feature, they would be quite ordinary without, and places that haven't got a canal notice this. By and large the benefits of a canal don't travel far, convenient walking distance, which for most people is about 600m, is the limit. So the logic is take the canal to the town - Daventry is not the only town to have thought like this, most towns on restoration schemes think this way too.

 

Typically the economic benefits come in the main from land based visitors and the spend they bring - boaters are only about a quarter of it (and that includes spend by boaters who moor in the area), but the land based visitors come to see an active canal, you can't achieve the benefits without one. You'll get some uplift in residential property prices on a canal with no boats, but that's about it.

 

So yes, the idea is to make a canal that boaters will use and visitors will come and see the boats, and all of them will spend money in Daventry.

Edited by magpie patrick
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I have remembered that we also looked at the diagonal lock - this didn't cut the mustard: as the engineer examining it pointed out it fell between two stools- to near vertical and it wasn't diagonal, too near horizontal and it wasn't a lock, and in between the diameter was huge to accommodate the length of the boats rising within the tunnel

 

Presumably diagonal viewed from the side (there are plenty of other locks which are diagonal viewed from above)?

 

The thing about (say) Falkirk is it's unique; one of a kind. People won't trek in their millions to see the second canal wheel in the UK. One of the nice features (to me, I live near it!) of the proposed Brogborough Whirl on the Bedford MK Canal (http://www.b-mkwaterway.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/BMK_Press_Release_Waterway-Park-Gets-a-Step-Closer_Dec_2007.pdf top of second page) is it's something totally different - people will come to look at a spiral boat lift just because, er, it's a spiral boat lift.

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Presumably diagonal viewed from the side (there are plenty of other locks which are diagonal viewed from above)?

 

The thing about (say) Falkirk is it's unique; one of a kind. People won't trek in their millions to see the second canal wheel in the UK. One of the nice features (to me, I live near it!) of the proposed Brogborough Whirl on the Bedford MK Canal (http://www.b-mkwaterway.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/BMK_Press_Release_Waterway-Park-Gets-a-Step-Closer_Dec_2007.pdf top of second page) is it's something totally different - people will come to look at a spiral boat lift just because, er, it's a spiral boat lift.

 

This is the diagonal lock

 

http://www.diagonallock.org/

 

It is perhaps a solution looking for a problem

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Presumably diagonal viewed from the side (there are plenty of other locks which are diagonal viewed from above)?

 

The thing about (say) Falkirk is it's unique; one of a kind. People won't trek in their millions to see the second canal wheel in the UK. One of the nice features (to me, I live near it!) of the proposed Brogborough Whirl on the Bedford MK Canal (http://www.b-mkwaterway.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/BMK_Press_Release_Waterway-Park-Gets-a-Step-Closer_Dec_2007.pdf top of second page) is it's something totally different - people will come to look at a spiral boat lift just because, er, it's a spiral boat lift.

Not sure that not being the first a big issue, location I would think is more important. Guessing at numbers here, but the Falkirk wheel's location puts it within a day trip to perhaps only 5% of the UK population. The midlands would be within distance for a much higher number perhaps over 50% of the population, so the potential as a tourist destination is much greater. If the draw because it was second was only 50% of that of Falkirk, the absolute numbers would still be much greater.
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Not sure that not being the first a big issue, location I would think is more important. Guessing at numbers here, but the Falkirk wheel's location puts it within a day trip to perhaps only 5% of the UK population. The midlands would be within distance for a much higher number perhaps over 50% of the population, so the potential as a tourist destination is much greater. If the draw because it was second was only 50% of that of Falkirk, the absolute numbers would still be much greater.

 

Doesn't quite work like that - Falkirk is between Glasgow and Edinburgh, the tourist catchment is massive because the tourists are already there, it put falkirk on the map.

 

Falkirk is an easy sell because it is blindingly obvious what it does and why, it's also had an unforeseen effect on the economy, it has massively exceeded expectations. ETA, it still needs a government subsidy to run it though.

 

I think, in the end, there will be another wheel, simply because it is such a good solution to the lift problem, no cables, no hydraulic rams, however you need a lift big enough to fit the axle in the middle. "Falkirk 2" won't be sold as a tourist attraction but as a solution to a real problem

 

In my line of work I've seen some very creative solutions drawn up, most of them so cumbersome, contrived and heath-robinson-esque that they will never see the light of day!

Edited by magpie patrick
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Doesn't quite work like that - Falkirk is between Glasgow and Edinburgh, the tourist catchment is massive because the tourists are already there, it put falkirk on the map.

 

Falkirk is an easy sell because it is blindingly obvious what it does and why, it's also had an unforeseen effect on the economy, it has massively exceeded expectations. ETA, it still needs a government subsidy to run it though.

 

I think, in the end, there will be another wheel, simply because it is such a good solution to the lift problem, no cables, no hydraulic rams, however you need a lift big enough to fit the axle in the middle. "Falkirk 2" won't be sold as a tourist attraction but as a solution to a real problem

 

In my line of work I've seen some very creative solutions drawn up, most of them so cumbersome, contrived and heath-robinson-esque that they will never see the light of day!

I wasn't so much thinking of tourists, but population. Glasgow and Edinburgh are what 4 million between them, that same catchment area for the midlands has got to have a much larger population. Also How many of the tourists in Edinburgh would be interested in canals, that would not strike me as a profile that fits. That said, you are the professional, so I accept I am probably wrong :)
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I wasn't so much thinking of tourists, but population. Glasgow and Edinburgh are what 4 million between them, that same catchment area for the midlands has got to have a much larger population. Also How many of the tourists in Edinburgh would be interested in canals, that would not strike me as a profile that fits. That said, you are the professional, so I accept I am probably wrong smile.png

 

You're on the right lines actually, and to be honest us "professionals" don't know what will work, it's just we've researched what has worked! Depending on your criteria you could classify the Falkirk Wheel as a monumental failure. There are very few boat movements through it apart from the trip boat, and on my only visit some American tourists did question the guide as to whether it was basically a large white elephant, but like a white elephant it brings crowds to the circus. The Falkirk Wheel need's it's trip boat though, otherwise much of the appeal would be lost, because the visitors would never see it work.

 

Very few tourists are interested in canals, they want to be entertained. "Give us something to do"; coach companies want something where they can drop tourists off and they have toilets and "something to do" (The toilets are paramount - no loos, no coaches). The package holiday business want hotels and "something to do". One impact of the Falkirk Wheel was that hotels in Falkirk suddenly had a much bigger market, and as it's also handy for Edinburgh and Glasgow (frequent direct trains)... TBH, I think those doing the forecasts assumed people might visit the wheel whilst staying in Edinburgh or Glasgow, whereas holiday companies suddenly worked out the Falkirk was handy for Edinburgh and Glasgow and the hotel market suddenly got a critical mass of it's own.

 

You're spot on that "something to do" near Daventry has a big catchment population, and without this the lift probably would be less effective. Attractions that change the market are rare: the Eden project was intended to be one and succeeded, the Millennium Dome tried and failed (although it still drew big crowds), the Falkirk Wheel exceeded expectations in this regard. I think the Daventry A-frame may do as well as the Falkirk Wheel was expected to do, it's unlikely to match what the Falkirk Wheel actually achieved

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