Non-refundable deposits on moorings

[blackrose]

I've been looking for moorings on the Nene near Northampton and have found a couple, one of which I'm very interested in.

 

I've got to make a decision this week as both mooring operators want a £500 non-refundable deposit to hold the mooring.

 

I'm starting a new job next month and will be renting a room in the area for a couple of months to give myself a bit of time to find out what the job is like, whether they like me, etc, before getting the boat transported onto the Nene. I'm actually on a 6 month trial period, but I can't wait that long before getting the boat moved up.

 

But the mooring can't wait or I'll lose it. I just wondered what others thought of that deposit amount? Is that a standard deposit? I didn't leave any deposit for the mooring I'm at now on the Warks Avon and I didn't get the boat here for 2 months - the moorings manager just held it for me. I can see their point in asking for a deposit and I could handle losing £100 or £200, but £500 just seems like a lot of money to lose if the job doesn't work out - not that I have any choice - I either accept their terms or I don't get the mooring.

Edited March 22, 2016 by blackrose

[bassplayer]

I've been looking for moorings on the Nene near Northampton and have found a couple, one of which I'm very interested in.

 

I've got to make a decision this week as both mooring operators want a £500 non-refundable deposit to hold the mooring.

 

I'm starting a new job next month and will be renting a room in the area for a couple of months to give myself a bit of time to find out what the job is like, whether they like me, etc, before getting the boat transported onto the Nene. I'm actually on a 6 month trial period, but I can't wait that long before getting the boat moved up.

 

But the mooring can't wait or I'll lose it. I just wondered what others thought of that deposit amount? Is that a standard deposit? I didn't leave any deposit for the mooring I'm at now on the Warks Avon and I didn't get the boat here for 2 months - the moorings manager just held it for me. I can see their point in asking for a deposit and I could handle losing £100 or £200, but £500 just seems like a lot of money to lose if the job doesn't work out - not that I have any choice - I either accept their terms or I don't get the mooring.

Could you explore the system for a bit until everything settles down and you know what's happening? I'm sure something else will come up eventually.

[blackrose]

Could you explore the system for a bit until everything settles down and you know what's happening? I'm sure something else will come up eventually.

 

Something might turn up later, but probably not as nice...

 

I could just keep the boat where it is for 6 months and rent the room. Or I could bring the boat across the country to the GU side of Northampton and CC for 6 months, but it's a 3 week trip and will cost the best part of a grand with the various licences, pilot's fees to cross the Bristol channel and fuel costs. Then it would still cost about the same amount to get the boat lifted and transported onto the Nene as it would from here. Also if I go cruising and then the job doesn't work out I'd have lost my mooring here.

 

Basically I realise I need to take a punt if I want the nice mooring that I've seen, but just wondering if £500 is too much to gamble...

Edited March 22, 2016 by blackrose

[George94]

I think the wording is the issue. Deposits are usually returnable, so a non-returnable deposit seems wrong. Think of it as rent and it seems more reasonable. After all, if you don't take the mooring the owner will have lost out unless he charges you something. You need to make it worth his while to hold the mooring for you.

[blackrose]

I think the wording is the issue. Deposits are usually returnable, so a non-returnable deposit seems wrong. Think of it as rent and it seems more reasonable. After all, if you don't take the mooring the owner will have lost out unless he charges you something. You need to make it worth his while to hold the mooring for you.

 

Well, when I say it's non-refundable, the deposit actually comes off the mooring fee once the mooring is occupied, so it is rent. However, if the mooring isn't taken then you lose the deposit. As I said in my original post, in that event I can see it from their point of view and have no problem losing something, it's the amount that's troubling me. I can't really afford to lose 500 quid.

Edited March 22, 2016 by blackrose

[Horace42]

I have no idea of prices in the area, or demand, so can't say whether it is good value or not. But even if I did, it is purely a 'private' decision between you and the landlord. If the site ticks all your boxes, then go for it.

But apart from cost, it seems like a logistics problem of timing.

How long will it take to find the job is permanent (who decides?).

Can you manage without the boat during this period.

Will you be able to find another mooring at a later date (at less cost?).

What is the deposit for. Is to hold the mooring pending your occupation for a fixed period.

When do you you start paying rent - and what notice to vacate is required - .

There are too many variables to ponder.

My simplistic approach is pay the deposit to reserve the site 'empty' (but probably paying rent from day 1) - until you know the job will be permanent. Then move your boat.

Meanwhile 'rent' the mooring temporarily (if you can) to a 'passing' boat.

 

[MHS]

Personally, i think the £500 is fair enough if he's holding the mooring for over 2 months for you.

 

If he turned someone else away, and you then changed your mind, he could be seriously out of pocket. We have had to pay deposits on both our previous moorings.

[Paul C]

I'm personally amazed at the concept of a "refundable deposit" - if its refundable on any terms, why take it at all - then you're simply providing him credit. Obviously from a business point of view, you'd take a deposit based on the opportunity cost of that service you're now unable to offer to someone else:

 

cost of mooring x likelihood of renting it to someone else

[MtB]

 

I can't really afford to lose 500 quid.

 

 

It's to obtain some commitment from you. They are concerned you might take the mooring but instead of turning up in two months, call them and say 'changed my mind'. They can't really afford to hold the mooring empty while you prevaricate either.

 

[blackrose]

I have no idea of prices in the area, or demand, so can't say whether it is good value or not. But even if I did, it is purely a 'private' decision between you and the landlord. If the site ticks all your boxes, then go for it.

But apart from cost, it seems like a logistics problem of timing.

How long will it take to find the job is permanent (who decides?). Both parties decide. It will only take me a couple of months but I'm on a trial period for 6 months.

Can you manage without the boat during this period. For 2 months yes, for 6 months no.

Will you be able to find another mooring at a later date (at less cost?). Perhaps, who knows?

What is the deposit for. Is to hold the mooring pending your occupation for a fixed period. Yes.

When do you you start paying rent - and what notice to vacate is required - . Once the mooring is occupied. Not sure about the notice period - probably 1 month.

There are too many variables to ponder. Yes, that's why I'm struggling with it and asking for advice.

My simplistic approach is pay the deposit to reserve the site 'empty' (but probably paying rent from day 1) - until you know the job will be permanent. Then move your boat.

Meanwhile 'rent' the mooring temporarily (if you can) to a 'passing' boat. I thought of that but I don't think subletting is permitted in their T&Cs.

 

Personally, i think the £500 is fair enough if he's holding the mooring for over 2 months for you.

 

If he turned someone else away, and you then changed your mind, he could be seriously out of pocket. We have had to pay deposits on both our previous moorings.

 

Yes, it probably is fair enough, but losing that amount of money wouldn't be fair enough for me. The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

[blackrose]

I'm personally amazed at the concept of a "refundable deposit" - if its refundable on any terms, why take it at all - then you're simply providing him credit. Obviously from a business point of view, you'd take a deposit based on the opportunity cost of that service you're now unable to offer to someone else:

 

cost of mooring x likelihood of renting it to someone else

 

I don't think anyone has raised the concept of a refundable deposit on this thread, so you're amazed at an idea that you've floated yourself!

 

I think George94 was talking about deposits being used as rent rather than actually being returned, and I certainly never expected any deposit to be returned.

[john6767]

If the £500 means they hold it for 2 months for you that seems fair, and that is probably not far off 2 months mooring anyway, and the fact that you effectively get that 2 months (hold) for free if you take it up seems fair. I guess it is just a judgement on how good you think the mooring it to be worth it or not.

[blackrose]

 

 

It's to obtain some commitment from you. They are concerned you might take the mooring but instead of turning up in two months, call them and say 'changed my mind'. They can't really afford to hold the mooring empty while you prevaricate either.

 

 

Yes, I do understand what the deposit is for Mike.

If the £500 means they hold it for 2 months for you that seems fair, and that is probably not far off 2 months mooring anyway, and the fact that you effectively get that 2 months (hold) for free if you take it up seems fair. I guess it is just a judgement on how good you think the mooring it to be worth it or not.

 

Yes, I guess so. I'll probably just bite the bullet and go for it.

 

If I end up losing the money I'll just blame the forum!

[Paul C]

It depends on how sought after moorings are in the area. You might be lucky and find one at precisely the time you need it; you might not. I guess you can't pay the £500 now and sub-let the mooring for 2 months. Or simply stay there anyway, if you don't like the job.

[David Mack]

Life isn't risk free! All they are asking you to do is pay the first £500 of mooring fee whether or not you eventually take the mooring. To me that seems a reasonable risk in the circumstances you have described.

 

From what you have said, you are entirely happy with the mooring if the job works out, in which case no problem. But if the job doesn't work out - whether because you don't like them or they don't like you - then you have a rather bigger problem to resolve anyway.

 

If it is going to cost you a grand to get by water from Barton to the GU, and then you will still need to pay another wedge to get craned to the Nene, then it looks to me to make more sense to get craned all the way in one hit. The saving in cost will fund having two moorings for a while, until you are confident enough things are working out to move the boat.

[blackrose]

It depends on how sought after moorings are in the area. You might be lucky and find one at precisely the time you need it; you might not. I guess you can't pay the £500 now and sub-let the mooring for 2 months. Or simply stay there anyway, if you don't like the job.

 

Well, I don't think sub-letting is allowed. If I don't like the job or they don't like me then I'm not going to move the boat up there in the first place because then I'm getting into real money - £3k for road transport! So I'm going to hold off before I do that for at least 2 months.

[Athy]

This sort of key money is nothing new. When we took our mooring at Springwood Haven circa 2000 we had to pay a deposit - from memory £200 but I'm not sure - which was not returnable and which we did not get deducted from our subsequent mooring fees. So the deal which your marina (or whatever) is offering sounds reasonable. I think it's the transport costs rather than the mooring conditions which are really making you ponder your next move, or lack of.

[blackrose]

Life isn't risk free! All they are asking you to do is pay the first £500 of mooring fee whether or not you eventually take the mooring. To me that seems a reasonable risk in the circumstances you have described.

 

From what you have said, you are entirely happy with the mooring if the job works out, in which case no problem. But if the job doesn't work out - whether because you don't like them or they don't like you - then you have a rather bigger problem to resolve anyway.

 

If it is going to cost you a grand to get by water from Barton to the GU, and then you will still need to pay another wedge to get craned to the Nene, then it looks to me to make more sense to get craned all the way in one hit. The saving in cost will fund having two moorings for a while, until you are confident enough things are working out to move the boat.

 

Yes, I've realised that I'll have earned the £500 in about the first 6 days of the new job anyway, so if the job doesn't work out it's not really such a big problem. You don't really work in new jobs for most companies in the first week anyway. It's all HR stuff and H&S inductions.

 

I actually just had a call back from another marina on the Nene, so I'm going back up there for a look tomorrow and will take my debit card. One marina or the other will get a nice lump of my dough.

 

Thanks for the advice everyone - I just needed to bounce my thoughts around.

This sort of key money is nothing new. When we took our mooring at Springwood Haven circa 2000 we had to pay a deposit - from memory £200 but I'm not sure - which was not returnable and which we did not get deducted from our subsequent mooring fees. So the deal which your marina (or whatever) is offering sounds reasonable. I think it's the transport costs rather than the mooring conditions which are really making you ponder your next move, or lack of.

 

Yes, in the next couple of months you'll see lots of posts from me with my worries about having the boat lifted out and moved by road...

[Athy]

Should have gone to Narrowsavers...

 

Where is the job? In Pbo (as people who can't spell Peterborough call it)?

Edited March 22, 2016 by Athy

[Ssscrudddy]

It's all my fault. When Northampton marina was first opened I managed to bag a fully residential mooring. At the time I didnt have a boat. No deposit required. Anyway I never managed to get a boat at that time, but the mooring was still held for me. After the year was up, if I wanted to keep the mooring (having not turned up with a boat & not paying for the mooring) then I would be required to pay for the mooring. Well I didnt pay for it, I didnt have to, & it didnt get held for me after that.
A couple of years later I managed to get a boat & managed to bag another fully residential mooring at the same place. This time they wanted a non refundable £400 deposit to hold the mooring for me. If I paid for the mooring then the deposit would be knocked off my mooring fees, if I didnt pay for the mooring they would keep the deposit & I would lose the mooring.
I dont really see a problem with this. Basically I had denied use of a fully residential for a whole year, to anyone else who wanted it simply by not paying anything, & the marina didnt get any income from that mooring which they would have been able to let out to someone else. (The original 6 resi moorings went straight away & I was 1 of them, a couple of years later planning permission was given to make another 12 moorings fully residential & these also went straight away & I was 1 of them.)

[twbm]

Non returnable deposit is weasel words.

 

What they mean is, it's yours for £250 a month for two months starting now, whether you use it or not.

 

What's the on going rent going to be?

 

Are you guaranteed the let at the beginning of month three?

[Athy]

Non returnable deposit is weasel words.

 

 

If so, they are the words of an exceptionally clearly-spoken weasel. It's exactly what it says it is.

[George94]

If so, they are the words of an exceptionally clearly-spoken weasel. It's exactly what it says it is.

 

But oxymoronic, given the usual meaning of the word deposit.

[Horace42]

 

Yes, I do understand what the deposit is for Mike.

 

Yes, I guess so. I'll probably just bite the bullet and go for it.

 

If I end up losing the money I'll just blame the forum! .......hold on a minute !...... you will not lose any money as such because you will be paying for a distinct and tangible benefit that has a measurable market value - which is the right to exclusive use of a mooring site of your liking.

It is only you that can give weight to the 'likeness' of the site. It is up to you to use it.to get value out of it.

I know one thing, if it was me I would jump at the chance, because that solves the problem, and it leaves me free focus on the new job without the worry of all this hanging over me - from whence cometh the wealth to pay for it. But that's me!

 

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Why are you looking at going through Bristol if you are a wide boat then you will not get through the narrows at Northampton. If narrow go via Warwick GU.