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The end of lead acid batteries


Dave_P

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Am sure most are aware but Boating Leisure Services who built the last two winning boats at Crick put advanced Lithium ion systems in their boats. They told me that they give upto 3 days heavy use and only take around 3 hrs to fully recharge. Serm to remeber a figure of around £4k incl Victron inverter/charger. I sent Dave a link to this blog inviting him to share his knowledge.

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Yer havin a larf!

 

When people knacker their cheapo lead acid batts, it's seems extremely difficult to get them to do anything other than simply get out their chequbook to pay for a new set. smile.png

 

The small minority that don't would probably be concientious enough not to open and abuse a packaged lithium batt in that way.

 

How many on here have opened up a laptop bat or drill bat? Very few if any I expect. wink.png

From this months Waterways World, Richardsons have started using them on Broads Cruisers. 3 Victron 160 Ah as the lead acids were getting flattened and knackered.

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The reasons for using lithium batteries (of any type) over lead-acid are when weight or size matter more than cost per Wh. If you want an electric car to have a reasonable weight and range they're the only option, similar reasons are behind their use in power tools and mobile phones. In boats they only make sense when you want a decent capacity with relatively small size and weight (e.g. yachts) or you need so much capacity that lead-acid would be too big and heavy even for ballast (e.g. electric boats with several days endurance).

 

For most (all?) normal narrowboat applications lead-acid are bigger and heavier but cheaper and safer -- even with a big battery bank all you need is less ballast, assuming you can find space to fit them.

 

All the work on car lithium batteries (Tesla Powerwall etc.) is aimed at getting a big capacity in a relatively small light battery for maybe 2x-3x the cost of lead-acid of the same capacity, which doesn't seem like a good deal for most boaters.

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The reasons for using lithium batteries (of any type) over lead-acid are when weight or size matter more than cost per Wh....

 

...For most (all?) normal narrowboat applications lead-acid are bigger and heavier but cheaper and safer -- even with a big battery bank all you need is less ballast, assuming you can find space to fit them.

 

But it's also about cost over the complete set of cycles until the battery is no longer fit for purpose. The lithium technologies support a far larger number of cycles than lead-acid, and given the development that is going on that's only going to get better. Thus they're becoming better than lead-acid for narrowboats, albeit with a higher upfront investment.

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The weight of lead acid isn't something to bother about in a narrow boat, it may be in other craft. Lithium batteries work, as evidenced in every mobile phone and tablet and laptop computer, but these items have highly specialised battery management and go off outside safe operating conditions, and are often single cells or individually monitored cells. With the right charger they will be fine in a boat, whether that is the usual and ubiquitous automotive alternator, I doubt. At that stage you are on your own on the cut, no supplier or chandler can supply replacement or additional batteries or the specialist chargers necessary.

 

Current development will likely move in favour of Lithium cells but the availability of the correct parts at the local chandlers will become the limiting issue.

 

Tayna do Lithium car batteries, the batteries are all light weight and low capacity. One example being 10AH and 600CCA . Ideal for weight critical uses and engine starts in light petrol engines, but useless for people wanting to run the TV and lights and pumps all evening, their big battery is 20AH -great for an engine start but not so good for a winter evening with the eber, TV etc all drawing electricity.

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From Dacian's website:

"Lithium and in particular LiFePO4 is a better long therm investment than Lead Acid batteries.

 

--LiFePO4 has 2000 to 8000 cycles (70% to 100% DOD) vs Lead Acid 250 to 1200 cycles (20% to 50% DOD).

(This means you can get LiFePO4 with half the Lead Acid capacity since LiFePO4 can be discharged deeper and does not have to be fully charged as Lead Acid).

--LiFePO4 has a charge / discharge efficiency of 95 to 98% vs Lead Acid just 50 to 75%.

--LiFePO4 will cost about the same as Lead Acid with 2x capacity.

(A half capacity LiFePO4 will perform the same or better do to ability to discharge deeper and stay discharged with no effect on life cycle and do to better charge / discharge efficiency)

--LiFePO4 protected with Solar BMS can last 20 to 30 years where a typical Lead Acid will only last 4 to 6 years.

--LiFePO4 can be 5 to 10x better value than Lead Acid over the life of the battery

 

--The cost benefit are not the only benefits.

 

- LiFePO4 can be installed indoors with no need for external venting since it does not produce flammable Hydrogen gas as Lead Acid.

- LiFePO4 even at the same capacity as Lead Acid is much smaller and lighter (in some applications this can be important).

- LiFePO4 is maintenance free (AGM also claims that but in solar applications you probably need an expensive (1 Liter/kWh) gasoline or diesel generator to recharge the battery if there are more than two consecutive cloudy days else the battery life will be drastically affected)

 

Some Links in support to my claims:

 

Here is a similar Solar BMS from Sony using LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) battery to store solar energy but designed for grid tied systems Link and a more detailed document here Link

http://download.solarshop.net/english/uploads/FS-UK-Sony-Storage-system-data-sheet-10-08-2012.pdf

http://www.sklep.asat.pl/pl/p/file/b82d9c09831c75890e5e8b74dc8829f7/Product-presentation_Sony-Energy-Storage-Station.pdf

 

Bosch has a similar grid tied solar storage system see Link using Lithium Iron Phosphate with a 7000cycles and 25years life claim.

For Batteries you can check the Winston specifications for their Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries Link. There are other manufacturers of Lithium Iron Phosphate personally I use GBS cells since they where available about 3 years ago locally and where the best option for me at that time. But Winston and others seems to have better specs. My battery has already two years of full time offgrid with daily deep discharge and there is no measurable degradation see my house power consumption graphs below for more details."

 

If you just look at up front cost then yes lead acid is cheaper, but if you factor in useful life and useable capacity then lithium is far cheaper and less hassle.

 

The biggest issue currently is alternator charging of lithium batteries. Lithium batteries have such a low internal resistance they will take every last amp that the alternator can give so without a constant current regulator your alternator won't last long and without over charge cut off, neither would your batteries.

This is also worth a read:

http://www.technomadia.com/2012/09/a-year-on-lithium-rv-batteries/

Edited by RubyTuesday
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All interesting stuff, I can see that as car makers develop hybrid cars then they will solve the alternator charging problem. I expect Toyota alrady have lithium friendly alternators in their Prius.

 

In a few years we will look back on lead acid batteries in much the same way as we look back to incandescent bulbs now.

 

Top Cat

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"http://www.technomad...m-rv-batteries/ "

 

Like the link.

 

Li P works when set up by a couple of admitted technogeeks using modified Victron kit, would it work if mis installed* by the average narrow-boater? Currently I have my doubts.

The couple in the interesting article got items specially tuned by the manufacturers and specially set up their Victron Combi for the voltage requirements of the battery pack. They didn't master the use of the vehicle alternator (while driving) for charging the battery.

 

* a significant number of posts seem to relate to "my battery is flat -why?" or "why doesn't my generator charge the batteries?"

 

Superhackgeeks may like to refer to youtube for vids of the repurposing of Nissan Leaf battery packs (apparently available from bent cars at scrapyards in the USA)

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I totally agree, the alterations to the Victron are not ubergeek level, though not for everyone...

 

I bought a 24v 175A alternator with an Adverc controller, I thought that I might as well as it is quite cheep. I thought that I may be able to reprogram it or repurposed it. After opening it up it turns out it is a very basic analogue controller and not particularly useful.

 

An alternator controller (something far more advanced than is present inside the alternator) is required if you want to maximise the usefull lifespan of batteries, keep them protected from odd user behaviour and habits regardless of lead acid or LiFePO4 chemistry, as monitoring and limiting of voltage and current is required for accurate battery charging, which modern alternators do not do. And the controllers out there are pretty basic and not worth the extra cash.

 

I feel it is one product that is really missing for us all. If the equipment was built to a higher technology level, we could really reduce the number of people having battery issues. Dacian shows that these advanced products do not need to be expensive if you see the technology (wifi and Bluetooth connectivity, high resolution LCD screen, web based data analysis, ect ect) that he has fitted to a tiny unit for £186!

 

I feel a project coming on...

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From Dacian's website:

"Lithium and in particular LiFePO4 is a better long therm investment than Lead Acid batteries.

 

--LiFePO4 has 2000 to 8000 cycles (70% to 100% DOD) vs Lead Acid 250 to 1200 cycles (20% to 50% DOD).

(This means you can get LiFePO4 with half the Lead Acid capacity since LiFePO4 can be discharged deeper and does not have to be fully charged as Lead Acid).

--LiFePO4 has a charge / discharge efficiency of 95 to 98% vs Lead Acid just 50 to 75%.

--LiFePO4 will cost about the same as Lead Acid with 2x capacity.

(A half capacity LiFePO4 will perform the same or better do to ability to discharge deeper and stay discharged with no effect on life cycle and do to better charge / discharge efficiency)

--LiFePO4 protected with Solar BMS can last 20 to 30 years where a typical Lead Acid will only last 4 to 6 years.

--LiFePO4 can be 5 to 10x better value than Lead Acid over the life of the battery

 

--The cost benefit are not the only benefits.

 

- LiFePO4 can be installed indoors with no need for external venting since it does not produce flammable Hydrogen gas as Lead Acid.

- LiFePO4 even at the same capacity as Lead Acid is much smaller and lighter (in some applications this can be important).

- LiFePO4 is maintenance free (AGM also claims that but in solar applications you probably need an expensive (1 Liter/kWh) gasoline or diesel generator to recharge the battery if there are more than two consecutive cloudy days else the battery life will be drastically affected)

 

Some Links in support to my claims:

 

Here is a similar Solar BMS from Sony using LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) battery to store solar energy but designed for grid tied systems Link and a more detailed document here Link

http://download.solarshop.net/english/uploads/FS-UK-Sony-Storage-system-data-sheet-10-08-2012.pdf

http://www.sklep.asat.pl/pl/p/file/b82d9c09831c75890e5e8b74dc8829f7/Product-presentation_Sony-Energy-Storage-Station.pdf

 

Bosch has a similar grid tied solar storage system see Link using Lithium Iron Phosphate with a 7000cycles and 25years life claim.

For Batteries you can check the Winston specifications for their Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries Link. There are other manufacturers of Lithium Iron Phosphate personally I use GBS cells since they where available about 3 years ago locally and where the best option for me at that time. But Winston and others seems to have better specs. My battery has already two years of full time offgrid with daily deep discharge and there is no measurable degradation see my house power consumption graphs below for more details."

 

If you just look at up front cost then yes lead acid is cheaper, but if you factor in useful life and useable capacity then lithium is far cheaper and less hassle.

 

The biggest issue currently is alternator charging of lithium batteries. Lithium batteries have such a low internal resistance they will take every last amp that the alternator can give so without a constant current regulator your alternator won't last long and without over charge cut off, neither would your batteries.

This is also worth a read:

http://www.technomadia.com/2012/09/a-year-on-lithium-rv-batteries/

Not exactly an unbiased comparison, and targeted at RVs not narrowboats. The lithium batteries are more than 2x the cost of AGM batteries, which in turn makes them more than 4x the cost of wet traction lead-acid cells. Yes they do have longer cycle lifetimes if treated properly, which does mean a complete rethink of how they are charged and controlled, not just a standard alternator setup -- and an advanced controller (assuming you can get one suited to lithium cells) bumps the cost up even more.

 

Maybe all this makes sense for boats needing really big battery banks, either gas-free with electric appliances or hybrids or even electric powered boats (if you can solve the problem of lack of chanrging points), where the boat is designed to use them from the beginning. For most people lead-acid makes more sense, at least for the time being.

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The Technomad post elsewhere (links above) showed that Li batteries were good for them, using mains or a generator & charger. They charge at full rate to 100% SOC which is good. They couldn't use the vehicle generator which is what boaters seem to want to do. Having created a 4 cell 12v (nom) battery they had to invest in cell protection devices, and at least once they had to manually equalise the SOC of each and every cell.

 

For those who do understand charging lead acid batteries you may save a couple of cubic feet of space and maybe a hundred kilos but neither seem really valuable.

For those that cannot manage to get lead acid batteries charged I see little point in having to set up (pay?) special chargers and cell protection for so little space or weight saving, and when the battery gets to empty it will just switch off leaving you in darkness rather than the dull glow of a lamp on a battery at 11v!

 

The engine alternator in almost all boats is designed for automotive use to charge and float a lead acid battery so for boat use it will need a current limit on the charge circuit and a different voltage setting -so it becomes a specialist alternator. Without the special control gear a big Li battery can overheat like it did on a dreamliner which will not be good for the boat.

 

Li batteries are great BUT will need a commercial supply of suitable generators, chargers and protection equipment before they suit those who ignore the batteries -lead acid batteries die quietly Li cells can and will fight back big time.

 

Who is going to search the scrapyards for a Nissan Leaf battery and share out the cells (I'll take 24v )?

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The Technomad post elsewhere (links above) showed that Li batteries were good for them, using mains or a generator & charger. They charge at full rate to 100% SOC which is good. They couldn't use the vehicle generator which is what boaters seem to want to do. Having created a 4 cell 12v (nom) battery they had to invest in cell protection devices, and at least once they had to manually equalise the SOC of each and every cell.

 

For those who do understand charging lead acid batteries you may save a couple of cubic feet of space and maybe a hundred kilos but neither seem really valuable.

For those that cannot manage to get lead acid batteries charged I see little point in having to set up (pay?) special chargers and cell protection for so little space or weight saving, and when the battery gets to empty it will just switch off leaving you in darkness rather than the dull glow of a lamp on a battery at 11v!

 

The engine alternator in almost all boats is designed for automotive use to charge and float a lead acid battery so for boat use it will need a current limit on the charge circuit and a different voltage setting -so it becomes a specialist alternator. Without the special control gear a big Li battery can overheat like it did on a dreamliner which will not be good for the boat.

 

Li batteries are great BUT will need a commercial supply of suitable generators, chargers and protection equipment before they suit those who ignore the batteries -lead acid batteries die quietly Li cells can and will fight back big time.

 

Who is going to search the scrapyards for a Nissan Leaf battery and share out the cells (I'll take 24v )?

I wonder how the hire boats charge them ?

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I wonder how the hire boats charge them ?

 

I think the hire boat market is different from the private boater market.

 

Hire boaters are prone to calling the hire company when the lights go out. Private boaters are prone to having a fiddle themselves and coming up with a bodge. Generally harmless with lead acid, potentially disastrous with Li.

At best, £2k of batteries wrecked. At worst, a fierce fire.

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I think the hire boat market is different from the private boater market.

 

Hire boaters are prone to calling the hire company when the lights go out. Private boaters are prone to having a fiddle themselves and coming up with a bodge. Generally harmless with lead acid, potentially disastrous with Li.

At best, £2k of batteries wrecked. At worst, a fierce fire.

I agree, but I keep reading you cant charge them from an alternator, so how do they do it? Having said that I have used up all the available space I have for my batteries but can only use half of them, with these I could use say 80% so go an extra day without charging.

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I agree, but I keep reading you cant charge them from an alternator, so how do they do it?

 

 

By plugging the dedicated charger into the 240Vac mains supply.

 

Sorting out how to charge using an alternator is the Next Big Hurdle, it appears to me.

(Or rather, producing a commercially viable alternator-powered charger that is. The technology can't be that complex - the missing economy of scale is the reason for none being on the market.)

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If you fit the necessary cell protection then maybe you will get away with it,

 

 

But that's just the trouble innit. A small minority of ignorant but over-confident boaters will think they know better and choose fiddle with, and possibly bypass 'the necessary cell protection'.

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I think the hire boat market is different from the private boater market.

 

Hire boaters are prone to calling the hire company when the lights go out. Private boaters are prone to having a fiddle themselves and coming up with a bodge. Generally harmless with lead acid, potentially disastrous with Li.

At best, £2k of batteries wrecked. At worst, a fierce fire.

I heard you go blind if you do that

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By plugging the dedicated charger into the 240Vac mains supply.

 

Sorting out how to charge using an alternator is the Next Big Hurdle, it appears to me.

 

But the hire boats on the broads are not plugged in all the time if they were they would be using electric boats and not diesels. Richardson's on the Norfolk Broads are doing what you are saying cant be done. I have no idea how they do it.

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You can buy everything needed to do that from Victron today. See e.g. this system diagram.

 

It costs a fortune, but presumably the hire companies have decided that it works out less in the long run than frequent replacement of lead acid cells that have been knackered by the hirers.

In fact there's no reason you couldn't apply the same level of protection to lead acid cells, but it seems like there's never been enough of a market for that, whereas with lithium chemistries it's essential for safety so the kit is already there.

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From this months Waterways World, Richardsons have started using them on Broads Cruisers. 3 Victron 160 Ah as the lead acids were getting flattened and knackered.

 

Wonder what they previously used? Lead calciums really don't like being totally flattened.

 

I guess the damage is done by over use of the inverter, needs one with an intelligent low batt cutoff. (load dependent).

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